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darrent17412506
Known Participant
April 24, 2017
Question

Layers: so simple yet so lost.

  • April 24, 2017
  • 5 replies
  • 2910 views

Just off phone with Adobe support and even they weren't able to help, maybe you can?

I shoot portraits and retouch them.

Goal:  To do a workflow that, in the end, allows me to go back to each and every individual layer/adjustment and either redo or delete.

Confusion:  the correct way to create layers / adjustments and move forward, while being able to move back.

Here's my workflow:

Start with retouching subject's face:  I like to break apart each feature of the face I am working on (eyes/nose/hair/skin, etc) into separate layers so that if needed I can delete or readjust what I just did.

1.  Duplicate background

2.  Name it "Skin"...retouch skin to remove blemishes, use Patch tool

3.  Next create next new layer by duplicating the "Skin" layer, now I'll retouch subject's hair using the cloning tool, naming this layer "Hair"

Now comes my confusion:

4.  Create next new layer to retouch eyes, duplicate "Hair" layer, name it "Eyes"...use clone tool to remove veins, but now want to remove all the redness...so I add a ew Adjustment Layer -  Saturation, decrease it, create a Mask on the Eyes layer, and paint in a less red eye.

5.  NOW...I want to go and retouch my subject's Ear...WHERE DOES THAT NEW LAYER COME FROM (DUPLICATE) AND WHERE DOES IT SIT AMONGST ALL THE LAYERS?

You see the "Eyes" layer has above it a Saturation adjustment, it sits atop all the other layers.  If I create a new layer from below the Eye layer the work I do on it is not visible, b/c its not on top.  So how do I continue to build my layers if the Ear Adjustment Layer is preventing me?

If I make a Stamp Visible layer, can I continue to go to the first layers and make adjustments?

In short what is the appropriate workflow for Layers and Adjustments?

Thanks!

Message was edited by: Darren Trentacosta

    This topic has been closed for replies.

    5 replies

    J
    Juan Muro
    Participant
    April 26, 2017

    Creo que no está usted realizando un flujo de trabajo apropiado para el retoque facial. Utilizando el proceso de "Separación de Frecuencias" podrá realizar una edición mucho más precisa sobre tonalidades y texturas de manera separada.

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    darrent17412506Author
    Known Participant
    April 26, 2017

    Gracioso que sugiere que porque yo uso la separación de frecuencia, pero todavía tengo problemas de apilar el orden de las capas una vez que la separación de frecuencia completa. Cosas como liquify, balance de color, etc ...

    E
    edgrimley
    Participating Frequently
    April 25, 2017

    The patch tool can be used on an empty layer, at least in CS6. Set it to Content Aware and Sample All Layers.

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      darrent17412506Author
      Known Participant
      April 25, 2017

      Thanks, trying now!

      D
      darrent17412506Author
      Known Participant
      April 24, 2017

      As shown below, it seems the only way I can use all the tools I use (Liquify, Spot Healing, and Stamp) is by creating new Layers from the previous layer below it.  Above you can see I'm stuck two ways...one is that I can add a new Command J from Skin Tone below...b/c its not a top layer anymore, an adjustment layer, that is clipped to it is now on top.  And I not able to go back to the previous Layers (Skin, Liquify, Skin Tone) and make adjustments...as it doesn't allow me to do so...what to do?  I want to continue moving up the Layers ladder...adding more layers

      Trevor.Dennis
      Community Expert
      Trevor.DennisCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      April 24, 2017

      Hi Darren

      Your layer thumbnails show the full content of the portrait, so each layer is hiding the contents of the layers below it in the stack.  That's a crazy workflow.  Most tools allow you 'Sample all Layers'  (the Patch tool is the exception) and that will let edits on other layers show through.  You can locate a layer by selecting the Move tool, and either turning on Auto Select (which is a PITA) or holding down the Cltr (Cmd) key while clicking on an area in the image to momentarily turn on Auto Select.

      I would expect to see areas grouped, or made into Smart Objects for convenience.  Although I find Smart Objects less useful with this sort of edit because you usually need to make further edits in the context of the rest of the image, and double clicking an SO to open it in a new window, loses that context.  A trick I frequently use with SOs is to have a sort of dummy background layer at the bottom of the SO layer stack, which I can turn on while applying edits, and turn off before saving the SO to update the master document.

      Where SOs are really useful is for applying filters.  I love that you can go back and fine tune a filter with no loss of image quality.  What makes that even more useful is that we now have Camera RAW as a filter, and that is an incredibly powerful tool for portrait work.

      If all else fails, add a copy merged layer to the top of the stack.  Make your edits, and mask out the unwanted areas with a layer mask.  I do  that when feeling lazy, but what tends to happen is that projects go beyond what I expected, and I wish I'd used a proper workflow from the outset.

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      darrent17412506Author
      Known Participant
      April 25, 2017

      Thanks Trevor, going to experiment with this now.  BUT last night I think I have a moment of clarity, rare for me...:)

      All along what I've wanted is the ability to go back to the beginning and redo an edit on a Layer if I feel its to much or not enough (lets say using patch tool or clone stamp).  As you understood when you said:  "you usually need to make further edits in the context of the rest of the image"

      And then it hit me, I CAN'T UNDO WHAT I JUST DID...what I mean is that with an Adjustment Layer like Curves, I can go back and have a redo ...but with tools like Patch, Clone, Healing, Spot (cleaning skin)...its not possible for me to go back and put pimples back in that I've removed, or delete individual lashes /hair I've added.  The reason I want to break down a face for retouching into many separate Layers is that in the event I don't like the end result, I can remove that one layer only, while not impacting the other work I've done.

      So with that being said, is your suggestion above the better workflow to follow?

      I seems what I wanting to do is go back into the history panel and delete specific actions I've done.

      S_Gans
      Community Expert
      S_GansCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      April 24, 2017

      Another thing to consider, beyond masking, is to use the tools on BLANK layers.

      One of the reasons you're seeing that you can't delete part of what you did on prior layers is that they're duplicates of each other, essentially. Like an Escher mirror painting, each layer contains all of the previous layer.

      Instead, if you're using, say... the  Healing Brush on eyes, do it on a blank layer - make sure that your Control Bar (top of the screen) says Sample All Layers, and then just paint on your blank layer. Maybe this example will help:

      Adobe Community Expert / Adobe Certified Instructor
      D
      darrent17412506Author
      Known Participant
      April 24, 2017

      ahhhhh, going to try that now...love the puppy!...thanks!

      jane-e
      Community Expert
      jane-eCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      April 24, 2017

      Although you did not mention which software you are using, I am going to assume Photoshop, and move it there from the non-technical Lounge.

      Also, please post a screen shot of your Layers panel. Thanks!

      D
      darrent17412506Author
      Known Participant
      April 24, 2017

      Thanks Jane...my mistake!

      Photoshop CC 2017 on a Mac using recent Sierra.

      See the issue for me comes in here...where can I add a new layer with all those adjustments at the top...and assume that a new layer may also have adjustments.

      Kevin Stohlmeyer
      Community Expert
      Kevin StohlmeyerCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      April 24, 2017

      Here we go...I have exaggerated the above for effect here so you can see it easily.

      If I were retouching, and wanted to make sure I can go back to any layer later on and readjust or delete, you can see here I can't.

      First photo shows multiple layers and an adjustment.

      2nd shows me pretending to "turn off" a layer (hide the green on glasses) but it remains there...so it says to me I'm stuck with the work I did on that layer, cant be deleted or removed.

      3rd layer, however, shows that the top layer, the liquify layer, can be "turned off" (went back to normal size), assuming b/c it sits at the top.

      How do I create a workflow of layers and adjustments that lets me edit or delete what I've done?


      Try starting with this tutorial to get an understanding of layer stacking orders and how adjustment layers interact with image layers:

      Learning layer basics in Photoshop

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