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N-Trig Tablet Not Recognized

New Here ,
Jan 29, 2009 Jan 29, 2009

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A few other HP and Dell tablet PC users and I have noticed that photoshop does not recognize the pressure sensitivity of the N-trig tablets. I bought this laptop thinking that it was Wacom because I knew it was pressure sensitive (which it is on a couple other programs) so I was a little surprised when I found out that there was more than one type of digitizer pen.

Is there a work around, patch or some other way to get Photoshop and Elements to recognize it?

I contacted N-Trig already and they basically said it's the software's issue.

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replies 106 Replies 106
Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Hudechrome, this is not quite how it works.  Granted, I used a lot of technical specifics in my explanation, without a big picture view.  So here it is.  It's long. Sorry; that's unavoidable given the complexity of the situation.

CAD tablets are very similar to graphics tablets, but they tend to have a lot more template keys ("ExpressKeys" in Wacom terminology), and their users prefer to customize them to a much larger extent.  The patent troll worked in the CAD tablet industry, where a souped-up driver was often purchased separately to the hardware, and cost quite a bundle.  Since AutoCAD costs far more than Photoshop, customers did not regard this as an unreasonable price to pay.

In the graphics tablet industry, the driver has traditionally been free and bundled with the tablet.  The manufacturer of the tablet supplies the driver, and codes it to a standard tablet API.  Applications then consume that standard, and it is unnecessary for applications to do anything manufacturer-specific for different models of tablets.  There is some customization, but it's minimal compared to the CAD world.  So, to a large extent, it really is generic and universal.

But there are two tablet standards: (1) Wintab, developed in the mid-1990s and not updated since, which is owned by a patent troll, even though a different company invented it.  The troll has been very aggressive in filing lawsuits.  (2) the Microsoft Tablet API, released in 2002, which only offers basic functionality (includes pressure, though), but is available for free use by everyone on the Windows platform.

Note that a graphics tablet often costs less than just a CAD driver (even some Wacoms are low-cost, like the Bamboo), which obviously presents a problem in terms of licensing (the fact that the Wintab patent is owned by a one-guy company, and the guy is quite combative, and he disappears to climb mountains from time to time, doesn't help).

N-Trig and Finepoint, which make (made) digitizers for Tablet PCs, chose to support the Microsoft API.  People from Finepoint have, in fact, pointed to the patent troll as the reason why they cannot offer Wintab support.  Wacom supports Wintab (legal settlement, terms unknown, I suspect they got the better of him due to their market power and patent portfolio -- makes it easy to countersue).  But Wacom also supports the Microsoft API, because they were intimately involved with the genesis of the Tablet PC.  This is also why I have a hard time finding fault with Wacom.  Yes, their stuff is expensive, and they've got a near-monopoly, but they've "done the right thing" in all respects, and they're accomodating, and their drivers are nice, and I've had largely good experiences with their customer support (compare to Adobe).

But now consider what this means.  To my knowledge, every graphics tablet maker now supports the Microsoft API.  Largely, this is because all the hardware makers want to claim compatibility with Vista.  Plus, they can support the Microsoft API without risk of getting sued out of existence.  (Besides, if anyone's going to launch lawsuits, they're going to go after Microsoft's deeper pockets.)  In other words, it would be very strange to deny that the Microsoft Tablet API is the new universal standard, whereas Wintab has become legacy (i.e., deprecated) by virtue of being locked away in the clutches of a patent troll.

It's a bit difficult to follow this situation because so many companies are involved, and it's split into so many elements.  There are CAD tablets and graphics tablets, there are components suppliers (N-Trig) and PC vendors (HP) and ISVs (Adobe) and driver makers (The Logic Group).  If you don't understand all aspects of the situation, or (as Chris did) choose to ignore the situation, then it becomes easy to place blame on the wrong party.  When so many companies are involved, they can all blame each other rather than work on their piece of the pie, to fix it.

So far in this thread, Adobe's attitude has proceeded as follows (obvious objections in brackets):

  1. Adobe supports Wintab, and it's N-Trig's fault for not using it.  Only they can fix it. [Can you really fault N-Trig, given the situation?  In any case, Adobe can fix it too, not just for N-Trig, but for the entire industry, including future entrants into the market.]
  2. The Microsoft Tablet API sucks, and we're not going to use it.  It's missing all these things that are essential for Photoshop, and it's horribly buggy. [No, it's got what we want, and we feel you're exaggerating the bugs to use it as an excuse.]
  3. OK, N-Trig's not alone.  But it's only two companies that don't support Wintab, everyone else does. And they're doing this just to shortchange their customers and save "pennies".  [Also false, there are many more than two, and international companies aren't susceptible to the patent troll.  And if it were truly a matter of "pennies," do you think we'd be in this situation?  And why do you hate N-Trig so much?  By all appearances, they're an innovative young startup -- inexperienced, but has good intentions.  Adobe was a startup once.  Follow the Golden Rule.]
  4. Fine, we'll look into the Microsoft API, but it's a rough fit, and it's up to Microsoft to make changes. [Much better.  Now just drop the condition on Microsoft, and we'll be happy.  We don't want to hear the same excuse four years from now.]
  5. You're distorting everything I say, and you're trolling. [To both parts: Am I?]
  6. We'll do what we can to support the Microsoft Tablet API in Photoshop.  No mention of demands on Microsoft.  [Great!  We'll take this as an official commitment.]

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Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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ShootTheMEssenger - Yes, you are distorting my statements, or attributing things to me that I have not said.  You are changing topics.  You are ignoring counterproofs to your arguments. You demand proof of things that are unprovable.  You claim facts that are easily disproven.

Yes, you seem to be following the basic script of a forum troll.

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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He is also posting half information on what you posted on this website: Pages 9 and 10.

http://www.touchsmartcommunity.com/forum/thread/423/TouchSmart-tx2-1020-with-Photoshop-Corel-ARRRGH-...

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Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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"how to be a usenet troll, page 12, paragraph 3 - take the argument to an unrelated newsgroup, present a sob story about how you were treated in the original thread, invite others to join the original thread"

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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yup

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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"Unrelated newsgroup."  The TX2Z has an N-Trig digitzer, and the thread is specifically about the lack of pressure-sensitivity in Photoshop.  In fact, it was through that forum that I found this one, and other people have posted two backlinks already.  And you are not an Adobe employee on an Adobe forum, representing your company to the world.

Believe whatever you want to believe.  We'll be watching for good and complete Microsoft Tablet API support in Photoshop CS5 and/or CS6.  Actions speak louder than words.

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Yes, and I am watching for the Star Trek computer.

Computer!.........

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Pay attention to who is responding to whom or it gets chaotic!

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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I did.

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Telescreen1.jpg

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Yes, I know. It was a simplistic example, as intended.

I do software QA.

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Jun 13, 2009 Jun 13, 2009

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arlynxyu - please read what I wrote.  You seem to be reading something else other than this topic.

We are trying to add support for the Microsoft tablet API.

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New Here ,
Jun 13, 2009 Jun 13, 2009

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Chris,

From what I understand so far, there is reluctance by Adobe to issue mainstream support for the Microsoft Tablet API because Microsoft has not yet completed it to a point acceptable by Adobe standards. Considering this, would it be possible (knowing Adobe there is some developer that has already done it) to release plugin for Photoshop CS* that would enable these features. It is understood that anything along these lines would have to be treated as an alpha release, but it would give many many users the ability to use products that are otherwise adequate.

Thanks for taking so much time to follow up on this thread!

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Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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klaue - that isn't something that could be done in a plugin.  Supporting the Microsoft tablet API will take changes to the core cursor tracking code, event handling code, and brush engine code in Photoshop.  Because of the scope of the changes, and because this is a new API -- that will then require several months of testing to make sure it works at all (and will require testing against all tablets, again).  And that's ignoring the known problems with the API that might need to be fixed, avoided, or worked around.  This isn't something we can rush out the door.

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Guest
Jun 14, 2009 Jun 14, 2009

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Finally!  A definite statement, without hedging by weasel words, without equivocating by conditioning it on Microsoft's timetable, without flinging mud at hardware companies to deflect blame from Adobe.  Just matter-of-fact, taking responsibility, no ifs, ands, or buts.  "We are trying to add support for the Microsoft tablet API."

Deeds are more important than words.  We'll be expecting support for the Microsoft Tablet API, including pressure-sensitivity, by CS5 (perhaps too late to make it in) or CS6 (definitely should make it).

Chris can feel free to believe whatever he wants about me ("troll"), the Microsoft Tablet API ("buggy"), N-Trig ("shortchanged their customers" to save a few "pennies"), Finepoint, the patent troll (hooray!), and everyone else for the rest of his career.  Everyone is entitled to his opinion, no matter how far divorced from reality.  We've definitely formed our opinions of each other.  Perhaps our brains are wired so differently that we can't even understand the other person's statements.

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Jun 13, 2009 Jun 13, 2009

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ShootTheMessenger - Please stop misrepresenting my statements.

You have crossed the line of trolling multiple times now.

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New Here ,
Jun 13, 2009 Jun 13, 2009

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My bad; sweet. Thank you.

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New Here ,
Jul 04, 2009 Jul 04, 2009

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i apologize for the terseness and lack of capitalization coming next, i am on my phone as i write this at a fourth of july party. a friend who goes to corel cert every year has said that they recently made a press release about supporting ntrig and multitouch in the upcoming version of painter... though from what i have read they just said at some poiint using windows 7, and didnt commit to the next version. either way it just sounds like we are going to have to suffer some early adapter pains at least until windows 7, probably a bit longer.

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New Here ,
Jul 04, 2009 Jul 04, 2009

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hate to break this to you nate, but win7 is here. RTM on July 13th. I've

been using it since October.

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New Here ,
Jul 05, 2009 Jul 05, 2009

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I'm not talking about the RC, which is not yet fully supported by other software developers per their license agreements, which is officially October 22 2009. Even in the event that someone planned a windows 7-only release of software BEFORE that date, they'd have to finish it first, and from all reports both vendors are still working with both the windows tablet API and NTrig to ensure that these functionalities are complete before release. I realize that the technology already exists to support multi-touch (as per the Dell XT and HP TouchSmart which have both already been released) but the support (or more precisely the legal burden of support) of the  integrated use of multi-touch with windows 7 doesn't officially begin until retail launch.

So I'm assuming at the EARLIEST (and I know no one can commit to timelines so they'll probably either ignore or deny this) that it could be released is concurrently with Windows 7 retail in October.

Is that unrealistic, or do you have some insights into either of these companies that leads you to believe they'll have something sooner?

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New Here ,
Jul 04, 2009 Jul 04, 2009

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Well, there you go! Now, when Photoshop supports Ink, we won't have a problem anymore and I won't have to port the Wine version of Wintab over to Windows and risk being sued.

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New Here ,
Jul 17, 2009 Jul 17, 2009

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I think what's being consistently ignored by Chris is that it is legally *impossible* to obtain a license to develop for wintab. My impression is that N-Trig started off cagey about the whole thing but would like to support wintab, they just aren't going to take on the kind of legal liability that could sink their fledgling company by developing for wintab without a license. It was poor of them to pretend that their hardware could support Photoshop when they should have known it could not, but it's still quality hardware for a first release. I'd really like to see you, Chris, address this directly.

 

That said I completely understand Adobe's position here. I don't forsee a situation where I'll ever want a PC without multitouch support again, and it seems as if the major players in the market cannot legally support wintab. It sucks that people are confronted with a situation where we can have our hardware or our software but not both, but in this situation it's out of the hardware's hands due to legal complications so fair or not the ball is in the software developer's court. Your software is excellent but I can reproduce what I do in it with extra work in much cheaper software that supports my hardware. I hope you guys will understand when I say that I won't be buying any more CS upgrades until you guys get Ink API support or someone comes up with a hacked Wintab driver. Best of luck.

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New Here ,
Aug 05, 2009 Aug 05, 2009

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Not to beat a dead horse, but has there been any resolution for this (either elsewhere in Adobe, or through support with N-Trig)?  I purchased a Tx2z a few monthes ago, and because I heavily use CS4 sent the thing back because of the lack of pressure. I find myself needing a portable tablet again, though, and am shopping again... and N-Trig tech is, unfortunately, about the only thing I can find.

Is there an 'Official' stance Adobe is taking on the matter, outside of the argument presented by Chris? ie, Adobe is not/will not take any action to address this issue?

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Aug 05, 2009 Aug 05, 2009

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Read the whole topic, especially the most recent posts.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 12, 2009 Sep 12, 2009

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So, I debated, and waited, and finally actually bought the TouchSmart TX2z from HP.  The hardware is not yet perfected: I sent it back and they upgraded my screen becuase the one I bought was flawed and only registered the digitzer pen on about 4/5 of its surface.  The pen is crappy, it's only slightly less quality than the pen that came with the children's KBgear tablet (which you can still buy on E-bay.)  Oh, and don't ever pull the nib out of the pen, after you pull it out it will begin spontanerouly ejecting (they also replaced the pen) the N-trig pen nibs are apparently not meant to be replaced unlike my gorgeous Wacom felt nibs.  And the screen can scratch, so you have to love it, gently, like a crippled infant.

With all that why am I so giddy?

I haven't gone back to my 17" monitor or my Wacom tablet and far superior pens these three months, even when Flash authoring.  I legtimately own a small hoard of Adobe products that support WinTab pressure sensitivity including Flash CS3, Photoshop and an unrelated copy of Corel's Painter, but screw Painter, for 25 bucks I have been rocking it hard with what ought to be a low end kid's program, ArtRage.

THIS THING IS MAGICAL.  I finger painted, FINGER PAINTED on it for a Flash animation.  When I sent it in for repairs I whipped out the old art system, immediately tried to touch the "start" button on my LCD, and had this lingering hole in my bosom until the repaired TX2z returned.

And so, now, I'm only using Photoshop for photo editing.  And I don't mind.  I didn't install Painter on this new machine.  I don't mind.  I can actually use the brush tools at 600% normal size without getting system lag with this tiny low cost program, and people can't tell the difference in my final pieces (which surprised me.)  I've adapted when authoring in Flash, the only real issue for me is that I lost the lovely tapers at the end of my lines.  In Photoshop I lost flexibility when using my custom brushes.

But... I can illustrate while lying down now, and if I need to trace a real image I don't end up with shaky lines coming from my tablet input since I can use the screen surface like a light box.  I never used tilt sensitivty, so I don't miss that.

I thought I would have this thing hooked up to my 17" for page layout or big paintings, but nope, I'm good.

So, to wit: Life after WinTab is okay and I found out that I, the consumer, am an adaptable beastie capable of mixing new technology and creative programs to produce my works.  So, I guess Adobe will have to keep up or I'll adapt away from it, as I have so done with Corel. 

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