Oversaturation on FB

[beckyg38150142]

I have been doing some experimenting and can't work this out at all. If anyone can shed some light, even just to put my mind at ease if nothing can be done, i'd really appreciate it.

So on exporting photos from photoshop by web (legacy) everything looks good. Web preview looks good, in my phone gallery it looks almost identical. When uploading to facebook it all goes awry. Colours (especially red and green) are completely oversaturated and the photo also decreases in exposure.

I understand that fb compresses, I have saved optimum settings for upload and it hasn't made a difference.

My colour settings were sRGB and assigned profile sRGB, when exporting and choosing convert to sRGB I noticed in the preview a drastic change in saturation. I changed my settings and profile to RGB (1998) and converting to sRGB did the exact same thing. Unchecking stopped this oversaturation.

I've tried exporting as jpeg, png-24, embedding colour profile, optimised, progressive, lowering quality, changing dimensions - all with varying degrees of success.

My point here is to try and save a photo that looks similar both on PC and mobile for upload to the FB community and can it be done?

My current settings that have had the best results are:

Colour settings: Adobe RGB (1998)

Assigned profile: Adobe RGB (1998)

Export for web settings: JPEG, optimized and embed colour profile. Quality 75%. Convert to sRGB unchecked, preview: internet standard, no metadata, image size percentage 100, quality: bicubic.

Monitor has been calibrated.

This results in something much more acceptable on my phone truer to the original colours in PS. I understand it will never be exact due to various reasons.

Upon uploading via mobile to FB everything becomes oversatured, dark, and underexposed.

If I upload via FB from PC it looks fine.

I guess this is a phone issue but what is the root cause here? They look fine in my phone gallery.

I like sharing with my friends and photography groups for CC on FB. Most of my friends and family use phones and also have commented on their oversaturation.

How do I upload a truer version or is this some sort of inherent FB issue?

Thank you all!

[JJMack]

One the web your images should be converted from adobe rgb to srgb that is good policy.  However,  If you convert mismatch color image to Adobe RGB that is fine. If by default you preserve image color space you should not assign AdobeRGB to the image.  For the the color values in the image may be sRGB and assigning Adobe is not a correct thing to do.  If you the export save for web and convert to srgb you may mess up the colors a second time.  You should only use  Assign Profile: Adobe RGB if ton know the current value are Adobe RGB color values and the source file did not have a color profile embedded in the file.

What do your Photoshop Color settings look like? If the look like this I do not think you should use assign Profile Adobe rgb.

[beckyg38150142]

Hi JJMack

I'm getting myself quite confused now with colour settings and assigned profile. I'm working off a RAW image. I have set my colour settings according to the screen shot you have given. I no longer have the option to assign sRGB profile, but have a list of others which has defaulted to Coated FOGRA27 (ISO 12647-2:2004).

I chose do not colour manage this document instead.

When export for web (legacy) the image now looks fine, if a bit underexposed.

I really now am lost as to hat are the optimum settings I should be choosing. And could you explain it a bit more? I've looked at the web and the language is too technical for me at this stage.

[beckyg38150142]

I have managed to reduce saturation by actually reverting back to sRGB colour setting and profile. The saturation is still there but not as much.

I'm feeling like maybe that's just going to happen with an upload?

[D Fosse]

Always embed the color profile. Always convert to sRGB when the file is intended for a potentially non-color managed environment, such as web. It sounds like you're not using a color managed web browser. Even if you are, some sites strip the profile.

The point is, sRGB will display roughly correctly on standard displays, even without color management. Except if the monitor is a wide gamut model - then sRGB will display oversaturated. Wide gamut displays absolutely require full color management at all times, no exception.

[beckyg38150142]

That's fine, but what colour settings/assigned profile should I be using beforehand? Because regardless of whether I embed or convert the result is the same - oversaturated.

They are not oversaturated on my monitor, only upon uploading. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with my settings. But as I have said to JJMack I'm struggling with the colour management concept, and when or when not to use certain settings or profiles. I'd really benefit from a breakdown of it all.

[beckyg38150142]

So just for clarity now (since I have the option to assign sRGB again).

Colour settings: set as shown in JJMacks screen shot
Assigned profile: sRGB

Export for web settings: well I haven't figured this out yet since embedding or not embedding doesn't make any difference. And converting to sRGB or not doesn't make any difference either. I'm using Jpeg high with optimised ticked (though unticking that makes no difference either).

So can only assume that it is the colour profile I am using?

[Test Screen Name]

Is your monitor wide gamut? If you are not sure, what model monitor is it? Because this is what happens by design on high gamut monitors, which should never be used for checking web sites, only design.

[D Fosse]

Yep, that's the expected behavior from a wide gamut monitor in a non-color managed environment.

You cannot use a wide gamut monitor without full end-to-end color management. No exceptions. This is the deal you implicitly accept when purchasing such a unit.

[JJMack]

beckyg38150142  wrote

So just for clarity now (since I have the option to assign sRGB again).

Colour settings: set as shown in JJMacks screen shot
Assigned profile: sRGB

Export for web settings: well I haven't figured this out yet since embedding or not embedding doesn't make any difference. And converting to sRGB or not doesn't make any difference either. I'm using Jpeg high with optimised ticked (though unticking that makes no difference either).

So can only assume that it is the colour profile I am using?

The problem I have with you append is the word Assigned Profile: sRGB

You set your default your RGM mode color space to Adobe RGB so new documents will be Edited in Adobe RGB color space.  If you open a document you set Photoshop not to prompt you to convert to Adobe RGB instead you have Photoshop preserve the document's color space and edit in its Color space.

If you look in Photoshop edit menu in the Color area you will see two items:

Assign Profile...

Convert to Profile...

Often you may download image from the web they have no embedded color profile  You can continue editing without a color profile or Assign a color profile to edit in that color space.  Most of the time the colors in the image will be sRGB colors so you would most like want to Assign sRGB Profile.  However  it the colors do not look good you may want to try other color profiles to see if the colors look better. Also if you are working on a document and Paste in a screen capture and the colors does not look quite correct the may be not profile in the clipboard and you system desktop may be in a different color space then you are editing in Assigning a profile may help.   Convert to Profile... is a differen thing Photoshop will convert the current color values in the image to the correct color in the Color space being converted to.

So in you append I do not know what you mean  by "Assigned profile: sRGB"       Assigned seems to be out of context.  There is no Assigned Profile setting  I know of the color settings UI has workspaces color space settings where you seem to have AdobeRGB set for RGB mode. Photoshop does have an Assign Profile... menu item in its Edit menu.

[D Fosse]

I'm fairly convinced the "problem" here is a wide gamut monitor, not anything to do with color settings or document profile. Quotation marks because it's not actually a problem, just expected behavior in the absence of color management.

Becky, before we can move any further, we need to know what make and model your monitor is.

[beckyg38150142]

Thanks D. fosse . Just at work so shall get you the info later today.

[beckyg38150142]

Is am working on an Acer ES 15 (es1-522-476P)

[D Fosse]

Ah well, a laptop...usually impossible to say what parts they have put in there.

A quick google turned up this phrase: "According to our colorimeter, the Acer E 15 can reproduce an impressive 159 percent of the sRGB color gamut, which is well above the 94 percent mainstream laptop average"

That's slightly less precision than I was looking for, but does indeed suggest a wide gamut display.

Anyway. Becky, don't use Edge or Internet Explorer. They are not properly color managed. Try Firefox or Chrome.

When you prepare images for web, convert to sRGB and embed the profile. Make sure both those boxes are checked in the Save For Web interface. That's all you need to do; the rest is up to the browser's color management (or not).

[beckyg38150142]

Okay, thank you for all the advice and support. I have been using Chrome but I don't know what the issue is . As you say I guess a colour management problem.

I suppose it is also an inherent Facebook issue upon compression also. However I may invest in an actual monitor and hopefully will see some sort of difference.

Thanks again .

[beckyg38150142]

Yes where I have said assigned profile I mean assign profile. Which I have set to sRGB

[Test Screen Name]

Make sure it isn't a wide gamut monitor though.

One tip: compare with other Facebook images. Are yours more saturated then average?

[beckyg38150142]

Yes I will make sure

Yes they are completely oversaturated compared to the other images I view in photography groups (on mobile) If anything these images posted by others are undersaturated on my laptop, and seem correct on FB for mobile (colours are more rich and vibrant and seem duller/washed out on FB for Windows).

Which is something else I do not quite understand if I am exporting with the settings everyone else appears to use.

Does this help pinpoint another source to the problem at hand?

[Test Screen Name]

Hmm. If you're up for some experiments here are some ideas.

Get a picture you like in Photoshop, and which is saturated in Facebook.

Double check the file you sent to Facebook by opening it back in Photoshop, to be sure you still like the colours.

Now, download the image from Facebook and reopen it in Photoshop.

Now, what do you see? The original image, back again? Or the saturated image, just as you see it in Facebook? Or something else again?

[beckyg38150142]

So I have tried a few experiments now.

Test 1) Open exported jpg saved to computer.

I have used default option here and the image looks the same as when I first opened, edited, and saved. (Note: converting to working space presents same image - I see no difference).

Test 2) Download image from facebook (on windows)

Again I checked use the embedded profile. The image looks good, same as when first saved in Photoshop

Test 3) Download image from facebook (for mobile, which looks horrendously oversaturated). I then had to email to myself. Preview in windows looks good. I then downloaded the image and opened in Photoshop. Again this image looks fine, I can't see any difference between this image and the previous 2 tests.

Test 4) Send the image from facebook mobile (which looks saturated) to myself, and download in facebook for windows. Open in photoshop. No difference in colour again.

For purely speculative reasons (since I don't have the original image so can't really do I complete comparison)

Test 5) Download image of a photo from somebody else on facebook (for mobile). This image is of a lady with some peacock feathers. The lady has a nice flesh tone and the feathers vibrant blues and greens. Send to email and open in photoshop. Lady looks pale/washed out, lips look peachy/orange (compared to peachy/red). Blonde highlights in hair look pale blonde/white. Peacock feather colour not as vibrant. Though having no idea of what the original photoshop image looks like I guess I have no way of telling.

I have two thoughts:
1) Perhaps my monitor (laptop screen) is actually not calibrated correctly. And maybe get myself something like a Spyder? I have calibrated using inbuilt laptop programme and against different website tests.

2) FB mobile inherently oversaturates. I would guess the tests above confirm this. Why it is blowing out my particular images I cannot say, as the images I compare against have more vibrancy/saturation but it looks natural and intended. I had thought perhaps the fault lies with my phone, I have tried two difference manufacturers (Oppo, which is a Chinese make, and a Samsung 7) and the same thing occurs. I think I mentioned above that if I send these images from photoshop via facebook and my friends open on their phones, they also see something very oversaturated (reds/oranges particularly).

I have been told not to compare PC to a mobile at all. I get that, but more and more people use their phones for ease and convenience and I want to make sure I am showing my work consistently across all mediums.

Anyway, you guys are far more intelligent when it comes to this than I (i'm still really just amateur/hobbyist - but I want to improve and I'm finding this such a stumping block). Hopefully this may have helped confirm what you already know, or indeed helped you reach an alternative correct answer for what is happening.

Again, thank you for all your help.

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

This isn't nearly as complicated as you think.

Yes, you need to calibrate and profile the display if you want a reliable representation on screen. This produces a monitor profile that Photoshop uses to correct for your screen's irregularities and idiosyncrasies. This is a color managed display.

Applications without color management support will just ignore this profile and not use it. All bets are off here.

A perfectly standard run-of-the-mill screen is usually close enough to sRGB natively, that an sRGB file will display roughly right even without color management. It's not accurate, but close enough that most people won't have problems with it.

However, the more different the screen is from sRGB, the less successful that strategy becomes, and you need color management to correct for it - iow a calibrated and profiled screen. Again, non-color managed applications can't deal with this, and have no tools to display correctly on such as screen. They can't do it.

---

According to what I was able to dig up (see above), your screen is not standard. It may not be what we call a full wide gamut model, but the crucial point is that it does not come close to sRGB natively. So yes, you need a calibrator, and you need to use applications that do have color management support. There is no way around this.

[beckyg38150142]

Brilliant thank you.

Do you have a calibrator that you would recommend?

[D Fosse]

If you want to be future-proof, you can't beat the x-rite i1 Display Pro, at about $250. It's the best and most reliable mainstream sensor on the market, and if you later upgrade to a better monitor, it is also supported everywhere, in all kinds of calibration software right up to the highest end.

The Spyders have a somewhat bad reputation. I'm not sure how justified that is, I've used a couple and they've all been excellent - except for the "Express" editions. I suspect they dump the less-than-perfect specimens in that entry-level line. Fair enough, I guess. But I'd avoid the Spyder Express, Elite or Pro seems safer.

[crispincorky]

Facebook/Insta etc seem to strip the gamma of sRGB so you need to take one initial step before uploading. This video explains it well:

https://youtu.be/rYAjPHz-r18?si=4Rf8_S9riigC4VoW