Photographers: Which profile for Photo editing on M1 MBP?

[JuliaDz]

Hi. I have a question for photographers  who using MacBook Pro M1 for photo editing. 
which colour profile for display  are you using ? 
led , rgb , sRGB ? 
Thank you 🙏 

[Peru Bob]

I've moved this from the Using the Community forum (which is the forum for issues using the forums) to the Photoshop forum so that proper help can be offered.

[JuliaDz]

Thank you 

[PECourtejoie]

I also changed the title to make it more descriptive.

[D Fosse]

You use the profile that describes the actual and current behavior of the display. You can't "experiment" with the display profile - only one is the correct one.

This is why people use calibrators. It will set up a profile built on actual measurement.

If you don't have a calibrator, you need to use the system display profile. It won't be entirely accurate, but usually close enough.

[TheDigitalDog]

Start here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070119043614/http://www.takegreatpictures.com/HOME/Columns/Digital_Pho...

Assuming (sorry) this isn't anything new, and you have a hardware and software product to actually calibrate and profile that display, keep in mind that the new M1's have a newer backlight and not all calibration software products have a descriptor for this, you may need to try differing settings IF you have such a product along with an instrument to calibrate and profile the display.

[Conrad C]

The question needs a little more detail to be answered properly.

Do you mean the 13" MacBook Pro with the older M1 processor, or the newer 14/16" MacBook Pro with the M1 Pro or M1 Max processor ? This is an important question because of a major display hardware difference between those models.

Do you mean choosing a profile in macOS (Displays system preference), or in Photoshop Color Settings?

[NB, colourmanagement net]

HI Conrad C: Here is Apple's developer info on Display P3 hardware

"Does your display support Display P3?

Your hardware tools are just as important as your software tools: Ensure that the device you use to create assets supports the Display P3 color space so that you can preview your designs accurately. That includes all iMacs with Retina displays, 2016 and later MacBook Pro, LG’s UltraFine 4K or 5K Display, and the Pro Display XDR.

https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=5cda5ipr

Wikpedia says: "The M1 was released in November 2020, followed the next year by the Apple M1 Pro and M1 Max versions" 

So, it seems, all the M1 macs should be Display P3 compatible? Do you know that to be incorrect?

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[PECourtejoie]

Hi, the 13" M1 MBP has a P3 screen, but not an HDR one: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/

the 14" and 16" new models have a XDR display, and different modes, hence the question of the OP.

"Each display is factory calibrated and features pro reference modes for HDR color grading, photography, design, and print production." from https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/

[Conrad C]

PECourtejoie gets it. 🙂 If we are talking to a user who has bought a new M1 Pro or M1 Max MacBook Pro, the display color management experience is fundamentally different than any previous Mac model.

@NB, colourmanagement net wrote:

So, it seems, all the M1 macs should be Display P3 compatible? Do you know that to be incorrect?

---

Sure, the display gamut is still Display P3. That is correct…but focusing on gamut alone completely misses the point: The new Apple XDR Liquid Retina laptop display acts more like a hardware-calibrated display such as a high-end NEC Spectraview, Eizo, or BenQ: It is based on internal calibrations set at the factory, where you don’t simply pick an ICC profile — instead, you select a preset that sets gamut, white point, luminance, transfer function/gamma, and HDR support. (Kind of like choosing a preset in NEC SpectraView software.) In other words, the XDR Liquid Retina display in the MacBook Pro M1 Pro/Max is like the Apple Pro Display XDR adapted for a laptop.

Because of that, the default display preset on the MacBook Pro M1 Pro/Max is “Apple XDR Display (P3-1600 nits)”. Which means two things: HDR is enabled (if HDR content is on the screen), and maximum luminance can go way above what is appropriate for print. Maybe not the best default for print photography.

All of this means if we link to or copy/paste existing display color management advice on the web, and it has not been adapted for the M1 Pro/Max MacBook Pro, that info is not helpful. Telling someone to go choose a display profile in the Color tab of macOS Display preferences will be baffling…when there is no longer a Color tab for them to click! (I do know where the current ICC display profile is shown on the M1 Pro/Max, but it is not something you want to tell a casual user to alter; that should be done by their calibration/profiling software.)

That is why I asked the questions I did. If JuliaDz is using any Mac released before October 2021 then traditional advice applies, but if they are using a MacBook Pro M1 Pro/Max then the new advice applies. But there has been little guidance for the new Macs. This thread is one of the few places where it is being discussed constructively. If forum replies and other linked color management info do not address this display, that information will not be helpful.

If you have not seen them already, below is a quick demo of the display color management options on an M1 Pro MacBook Pro. I start from the Photography preset because the gamut, white point, and transfer function are appropriate, but I customize it to cap luminance at 110 nits for print.

So the reason I asked those questions is to be able to provide a quick and easy answer, instead of an overwhemlingly long one (uh oh, too late 🙂 ). Here are the short answers:

• If the question is about an older Mac, then it’s a quick answer to select Color LCD in the Color tab in the macOS Displays system preference. Or if you have a calibration/profiling device, let its software generate a customized profile. 
• If the question is about a MacBook Pro M1 Pro/Max, then select the preset most appropriate for your work (photography, print, web, cinema; HDR enabled or not), and customize it if you know what you need. Or fine-tune the calibration if you have the equipment and know how to change the aim points. 
• If the question is about Adobe Color Settings, then it’s a quick answer about choosing the right Color Settings preset, such as one of the General Purpose presets.

[TheDigitalDog]

Sure, the display gamut is still Display P3. That is correct…but focusing on gamut alone completely misses the point: The new Apple XDR Liquid Retina laptop display acts more like a hardware-calibrated display such as a high-end NEC Spectraview, Eizo, or BenQ:

By @Conrad C

This isn't new. And it isn't really anything like SpectraView. What is new is the backlight which again, software calibrating a display needs to 'know' and have set ideally from the start of this process. In this case, mini-LED backlighting. The newer i1Display Plus may be OK, and if one has a true Spectrophotometer, it can be done in two steps (certainly with SpectraView and perhaps other products), along with a Colorimeter. Ideally, this is an option supplied in the software.
Apple displays, laptops and otherwise have been calibrated at the factory for some time now. How long this is maintained or how ideal this calibration for a task is super questionable.

[Conrad C]

---

@TheDigitalDog wrote:

The newer i1Display Plus may be OK, and if one has a true Spectrophotometer, it can be done in two steps (certainly with SpectraView and perhaps other products), along with a Colorimeter.

---

Thanks. One area you might help clear up is that Apple recommends a spectroradiometer, never mentioning spectrophotometers or other more common and affordable measuring devices. Can you comment on the statements in this post, where David Abrams (who appears to be from avical.com) says:

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In theory, you can use any meter to measure the display, the question is, 'how accurate will that measurement be'? The MacBook Pro XDR uses a PFS Phosphor based LCD display which has spikes in the red (see attached spectral power distribution). Because of this spike, it is important to use a spectral radiometer with enough spectral bandwidth to properly categorize the display's performance. On the sample MacBook Pro XDR display, the error we measured out-of-the-box was approximately .004 on the y-- in this case using an improper meter could add more error than out-of-the-box.

---

Has Apple produced a display where typically affordable measuring devices might not be precise enough to improve on the factory calbration? I assume drift does happen eventually.

[TheDigitalDog]

A Spectrophotometer and Spectroradiometer are often same instrument depending on if you're measuring a reflective item or a transmissive item like a display. My i1Pro (Spectrophotometer) is both, does both.

Factory calibration can be very accurate. The question AGAIN is, how long will the device hold this calibration? And is that calibration ideal? Often it isn't IF your goal is matching the display to a print (under who knows what viewing conditions) or if you wish to match that display to another display. A canned WP (in CCT Kelvin which is a large range of possible colors) may be fine for photographer A using a GTI light booth and totally wrong for photographer B using Solux for viewing. Ditto for cd/m2!

I can assure you that no Apple or any other display produces D50 or D65. The object 93 million miles from here does and all those Standard Illuminates were measured from hundreds of measurements all over the planet then averaged. Like display calibration from the factory, YMMV and it often does.

[Conrad C]

---

@TheDigitalDog wrote:

Factory calibration can be very accurate. The question AGAIN is, how long will the device hold this calibration? And is that calibration ideal? Often it isn't IF your goal is matching the display to a print (under who knows what viewing conditions) or if you wish to match that display to another display.

From what I understand, if a Displays preset needs recalibration due to something like drift over time, the next step is to grab the best measuring device you have and enter the measured values in the Fine-Tune Calibration dialog box. Again shown below for those who have not yet seen the options for the XDR Liquid Retina display.

I’m not yet clear on whether macOS provides tools for visually matching this display against a reference print or another display. I’m aware that NEC and others provide more visually oriented tools for that purpose on their displays.

[TheDigitalDog]

If you have such tools, you likely got software that does this and more, plus produces an ICC display profile in the process. Whether MacOS provides visual tools or not is kind of moot, especially if again, you have the tools for dealing with this process. Colorimetry and Color Apparence are quite different and one is appropriate for the task of measuring color patches and then producing a profile from those measurements. That is how, in the end, NEC handles it with their software.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Fair Point Conrad, thanks for the explanation. 

as you can tell the M1 macbook or XDR Liquid Retina display

is not used by many of us here

neil

[Conrad C]

Right Neil, some of these changes in the M1 are definitely catching us off guard. I only just got one, and it keeps making me realize I have to update old material I’ve written. And that is on top of accounting for Photoshop features that Adobe still doesn’t support on Apple Silicon, like video file support.

The way you configure color for the MacBook Pro XDR Liquid Retina display was foreshadowed by what Apple did for the Apple Pro Display XDR earlier. In fact, the Apple documentation for calibrating them is the same. The reason we are all catching up to it now is because very few of us bought the $6000 Pro Display XDR (I sure didn’t).

But the M1 Pro/Max laptops have a much wider market, so now we all need to understand preset-based color configuration. But again, it is not much different than the software for advanced third-party displays, which is not just about selecting an ICC display profile, but also allows the preset to control HDR support, useful luminance limiting, etc.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Conrad C has helpfully pointed out that this advice does not apply to theXDR Liquid Retina display

For non - XDR Liquid Retina displays though its relevant 

Apple automatically create an ICC profile for attached screens - so, the one to use (if you don't have a calibrator) is the one called, in most Macbooks, "Color LCD" [or similar].

On my Macbook (older model) that appears at the top of the list in the System Preferences / Displays / Color control panel.

Checking "show profiles for this display only" therein the System Preferences / Displays / Color control panel should narrow down the list for you.

The best display profile is one made specifically for your own display by measurement using a device such as a colorimeter and good display calibration/profiling software . 

advice/display-screen-colour-management 

products/basiccolor 

Selecting, say, sRGB, from the list can only be used for troubleshooting display profile issues, no display is properly characterised by sRGB since no display fully matches sRGB.

(BTW, sRGB is a working colour space not a device colour space). 

Newer Apple displays are claimed to be close to the **Display-P3 colourspace by the way. But, all the same, selecting "Color LCD" will be more accurate. 

**

Does your display support Display P3?

Your hardware tools are just as important as your software tools: Ensure that the device you use to create assets supports the Display P3 color space so that you can preview your designs accurately. That includes all iMacs with Retina displays, 2016 and later MacBook Pro, LG’s UltraFine 4K or 5K Display, and the Pro Display XDR.

https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=5cda5ipr

I hope this helps make more sense of the options to you
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
[please only use the blue reply button at the top of the page, this maintains the original thread title and chronological order of posts]

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Conrad C has helpfully pointed out that this advice does not apply to theXDR Liquid Retina display

For no XDR Liquid Retina displays though it's relevant as is the working colour space advice

Hi Julia, one more thing:

"a question for photographers  who using MacBook Pro M1 for photo editing. 
which colour profile for display  are you using"

I think you may be getting mixed up here about "which profile to use". When it’s the display profile you don't have a choice. 

When working in Adobe applications (e.g. Photoshop) and, indeed any colour management compatible application, EVERYONE, no matter whether photographer, designer, prepress guy or amateur, should, ideally, be using a profile for the ACTUAL display in use.

We've explained here about custom display profile made with a sensor and software, that’s the best kind of ICC display profile to use. Or select the default for the display and hope its accurate.

You can use something like this to check: icc-profile-verification-kit

Here's where you DO get a choice - Adobe applications do allow choosing a different working color space (profile) for your "document file" - such as sRGB, Adobe RGB etc. THIS is where a user can make a decision about which colour space to work in.

For print, lots of photographers choose Adobe RGB as it is an industry default.

For web - a user might choose sRGB because that’s the "default colour space of the internet".

Now what happens is that Photoshop's colour engine transforms document colour on the fly - just to send to the display screen (this ICC profile to ICC profile conversion [which doesn’t change the actual document file] is based on the document file's embedded ICC profile [e.g. Adobe RGB] and the display profile that’s set in System preferences / displays / color.)

 I hope this explains why a user need to select an ICC profile that truly describes the actual display rather than choosing a profile from the list that gives a "pleasing appearance".

If an image file does not have a "pleasing appearance" then the way to fix that is [working on an accurate display] using Photoshop's editing tools.

NOT by altering the display profile. .

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management