Photoshop CC brushes extremely laggy with Wacom Intuos Pro!

Report · Mar 26, 2014

I've been messing around with digital painting on an iPad for a while, and just bought a Wacom Intuos Pro (medium) so I could do so on my Macs. I immediately noticed input lag from the Intuos, so started to do some testing. It doesn't appear to be the tablet. The same lag exists in Photoshop when using the Mac's trackpad, but the problem disappears entirely when I move into Corel Painter, trackpad or Intuos. Some lag exists in Illustrator, but not nearly as bad as Photoshop - Photoshop CC really seems to be the culprit.

I've uploaded a video (from my iPad; sorry for the quality) of this behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwR76V-hmLU

Any thoughts? Calling Adobe first resulted in finger-pointing to Wacom (quickly squelched when I pointed out the same problem existed when using the trackpad), and then sending me a link to a 5-year-old Adobe Forum post that's for Photoshop CS4 and Wacom Intuos 4 tablets - that's 3 versions back for Photoshop and 2 versions back for the tablet. (Of course, the solutions present in that post no longer apply.) Here's the link, for anyone interested: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3709366

Any thoughts? Painter seems nice, but I'd really like to be able to do digital painting in Photoshop as well. This issue makes that quite a bit more difficult.

Report · Mar 26, 2014

I have an intuos 5 touch not the pro. However have user my son's intuos5 pro on my machine for his first pro had a bad touch ring and he wanted me to test his tablet.

I do not have a problem with normal brushes like you show in Photoshop. I can produce long delays using large wet mixed brushes though. However ever small mixer brushes work more like the brush stroke you show using painter painter on my windows workstation in Photoshop CC 14.2.1 current version and prior versions.

I using wacom driver 6.3.7.5 I see there is a version 6.3.7.6 I'll download a try that now.

What does your Photoshop System information show here is mine

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JJMack

Report · Mar 26, 2014

Drivers 6.3.7.6 work fine for my intuos 5 touch no brush stroke lag in Photoshop CC

JJMack

Report · Mar 27, 2014

I have not been able to produce a demo that look exactly like your Photoshop lag Demo . But what did to produce a demo the look exactly I feel the lag is not a problem. What I did was open a new document that is 16,000 pixels by 9,000 pixels. Put Photoshop into full screen mod and used fit on screen and use a brush tip round 100pixel so it would look the size used in you demo and I set the spacing to 1%. The brush stroke look exactly like your demo. However the image is 144,000,000 and Photoshop had to lay down a million or more pixels.

JJMack

Report · Mar 27, 2014

what's the resolution of the image? that makes a huge difference. if it's 300dpi, then you're going to see a lag. If your image is 72dpi, then the lag will be much less noticable.

Report · Mar 27, 2014

144,000,000pixels at 300dpi and 144,000,000 pixels at 72dpi is 144,000,000 there is no difference in pixels only the resolution when zoomed to fit on screen my screen is 1920x1080 pixels so the 144.000,000 image is scaled to 2,073,600 pixels, When I paint over this scaled image with the image resolution is set to 72dpi or 300 dpi. Photoshop has to paint over the 16,000px by 9,000px canvas over the 144,000,000 image and scale the results to the 1920x1080 size. There is absolutely no difference in lag time at any resolution 144,000,000 pixels are 144,000,000 pixel DPI only changes size on devices the support images dpi like printers.

JJMack

Report · Mar 27, 2014

makes a huge difference for me. working at 72dpi and the brushes work fast. Working at 300dpi slows the brushes down somewhat. Working at 600dpi slows the brushes down even more. You must have a nasa computer or something lol

Report · Mar 27, 2014

Boo: A 300 dpi image that is 3" in size is 900x900 pixels. A 72 dpi image that is 3" in size is 216x216 pixels. For obvious reasons (i.e. that the image is 4 times the resolution), the larger image (in pixels) will be more likely to have performance problems. When you change the resolution in Photoshop, PS also resizes the image (unless you turn off resampling), which is why you see a performance hit: you're not just changing the resolution and leaving the pixel count the same; you're also changing the pixel count.

This isn't the case for me - I had only intended to clarify the actual pixel count. I don't have a NASA computer, but I do have the latest iMac and MacBook Pro that Apple offers, with the best processor and maximum RAM available from Apple. I shouldn't be seeing this kind of performance issue on such a small document size... and don't in Painter - only in Photoshop.

Report · Mar 27, 2014

i was talking to jjmack

if we're working on projects that will ultimately be printed out, then the norm is 300dpi no?

and if we're working on images that are just for the internet, then I think 72dpi is what they go by

an 8x10 image at 300dpi will be slower to work on than an 8x10 image at 72dpi. I guess this is all not related to pixels.. is pixels something different? How does pixels relate to resoltuion? I've always worked in inches, so I know physically how big the image is (8x10 or 16x20 or whatever)

Report · Mar 27, 2014

DPI is meaningless for the web for displays do not support image files dpi setting. Displays use their DPI resolution no matter what dpi setting image files have. Most desktop displays are low resolution and most these day have a resolution around 100DPI. Dell is now selling 4K 27" displays with a resolution near 180DPI. Laptops. Tablets and small mobile devices may have high resolution displays some have a resolution over 300DPI. If you display a 72 dpi resolution image on these devices it will be display at 300dpi or higher resolution. The only way to display that image at 72dpi on these high resolution only devices is to interpolate the image pixel count up in size by a factor over 9 times. Its simple math. It is getting harder to deal with the web these days because of the Display resolution and sizes are all over the place. The is no standard size web page any more. There are even some old 2001 IBM T221 display around they have a 204 DPI resolution are 22.2" 16:10 asoect ratio displat 3860x2400 pixels 9.2MP.

JJMack

Report · Mar 27, 2014

I'm using the size and resolution specified because it happens to be what my laptop's native size and resolution are, so it's convenient. I will eventually move to 300 or 600 dpi, but I'm just testing it out right now.

Report · Mar 28, 2014

File size and lag time I believe is directly related to the number of pixels involved. An image that is 1920px by 1080px there are 2,073,600 pixels to process and the image has a 16:9 aspect ratio. When displayed on a high resolution display like a kindel or a iPad this image will display around 10" on the kindle there will be no borders its display has a wide aspect ratio on the iPad there will be borders and the software in these devices may scale the image to fit within the number of pixel their displays have better. On low resolution Samsung HDTV the same 2,073,600 pixels will be displayed from a 32" size up something like 80" depend on the displays dpi resolution. Image Pixels have no size till there is an actual DPI resolution involved.

DPI defines the size of pixels. 300DPI states pixel density that a pixel is 1/300"x1/300" there are 90,000pixels per sq inch. 100DPI Pixels are 1/100"x1/100" 10,000 px/sq" a factor of 9 This is why image display 9 time smaller on high resolution displays. Displays use their native pixels. they do not support different resolutions.

I can not test painter I never installed. If you define the same size canvas X pixels by Y pixels in both application I would expect to see the same lag if the applications are processing the same number of pixels. However it is possible that they are not processing the same amount of pixels. It would be possible to process a much scaled down image in an applications like painter and Photoshop and then interpolate the scaled down image up in size when saving the image file. If Painter and PS are processing a different amount pixels there could easily be a big difference in lag time.

In my test I was using a canvas that contains 144,000,000 pixels on my 2,073,600 pixel display, If I use a canvas size the matched the number of pixels my display has there is no delay. I would expect the same if I had 4K display that has 8MP. That still a far cry from 144MP. There is als no delay on my 144MP canvas when I display actial pixles for I'm only working on a 2Mp area of it then. I only get the lag when I wotking the full 144MP canvas. It the number of pixels that are being process the cause the lag. 2MP vs 144MP. Zoom in no delay zoom out large delay.

JJMack

Report · Mar 28, 2014

the question is:

1. what are the advantages of using 300dpi as opposed to 72dpi?

2. why would we use 300dpi instead of 72dpi? is it for printing purposes only, where 300dpi would result in a more sharp, crisp printout?

Report · Mar 28, 2014

If an image DPI setting is not going to be use like on a display does it have any bearing at all the answer is no. If the DPI setting is going to be used like by a preprogram that will scale a image to a display's resolution so that is will display the correct size it has some value. Like it has value when used for printing for the printer will print the correct size pixel. Therefore some times the DPI setting is meaningless for is not used its not honored.

Crispness and sharpness if you want to go the depends on many factors. Start with Quality of pixels an image captured out of focused no matter how many pixel a or high print dpi resolution you use is that image going to be sharp and crisp. If you have captured a image that is exposed well correctly focus with a high quality camera, You have high quality pixels for an image. How sharp and crisp will the image be depends on the devices used to render visible image. Image also do not need to be sharp and crisp to be good. The video image you see in places like Times square and ball fields are not high resolution images on a 80" HDTV are not high resolution the are not crisp and sharp yet the look great because of viewing distance. You actually only need resolution when high resolution when it is of value. Where image are view up close and personal where the human eye can resolve down to 300dpi. If you are going to print large image they all do not need to high resolution. I had one of my image printed 6'x4' on canvas at a 100dpi resolution, Looks beautiful even up close because when you get up close you see the canvas textured surface. Don't be obsessed with DPI. The most important thing to concentrate on is Pixel quality and the number of pixels. Pixels is where its at. Have to few you can make large high quality prints. You can never have too many high quality pixels. For you may find a use for them even on a web.

If you search the web you will be able to find an image something like 50Giga Pixel panorama of Paris that you can pan around and zoom in on. See if you can find a couple in love. People associate Paris with love. I find no proof of that in that image. Paris is just the city of lights.

Message was edited by: JJMack

I was wrong its only a 26 Giga Pixel image http://www.paris-26-gigapixels.com/index-en.html Use its full screen mode....

JJMack

Report · Mar 28, 2014

ok let's say this - I'm using photoshop to do cartoon artwork for children's picture books. No photography is involved, just sketching/painting and using all kinds of brushes with photoshop. The artwork will be printed out into books that people will purchase in bookstores.

Is 300dpi for this a waste of time? Should I be using 72dpi instead (because it's faster?) If so, why are publishers insisting on 300dpi for the prepared artwork?

for example, each page is 12x14. the requested image resolution must be at 300dpi. this equals 3600x4200 pixels (but they don't mention this, the only specify that the artwoprk *must* be prepared at 12"x14" 300dpi).

if i drop it down to 72dpi, then the pixels become 864x1008.

what's the difference then? is there a difference in quality when it's printed out? If not, why are the publishers asking for 300dpi

Report · Mar 28, 2014

boo

I wrote 300DPI is only required when its of value don't be overly concerned with DPI resolution be concerned about the quality of your image pixels. I ask you this what is the quality of the paper that your cartoon is printed on comic book stock, high quality photo paper or something in between. You can not print a high resolution image on poor paper for a high resolution image will bleed during printing on low quality paper,

If your a cartoon artiest the important thing is to produce clean artwork with smooth clear lines. Your characters are not going to have skin with blemishes with fine hair follicles and pores. Cartoon do not have fine great details shading, hair and textures and such may be done with cross hatching. If your an animator your not drawing frames cells these days they are rendered with 3d applications with amazing detail textures and smooth motion.

If your a cartoonist because tablets and other computer input devices do not have the feel of real brushes and paint your brush strokes may tremble and studder some, You have to develop you artistic work-flow to work in the digital environment use the power of Photoshop to help, layers, blending masking, perhaps a plug-in that will process your brush strokes to smooth them out get rid if the trembles and unevenness.

DPI does not equal quality DPI can help you not loose quality high resolution does not improve quality. High resolution garbage is still garbage.

JJMack

Report · Mar 28, 2014

thanks, I'm learning something here. Let's say I have two *identical* documents open in Photoshop:

Image A: 16"x20", 300dpi, = 4800x6000 pixels

Image B: 66.667"x83.333", 72dpi, = 4800x6000 pixels

(Image A and B are the same picture, only at different resolutions and print sizes)

...are these two images esentially the same? And you're right, I do not notice a difference in photoshop performance betweeen these two images. The brushes work at the same speed on both.

But my question - what's the difference? If both look the same when printed out on the same type of paper, same printer, etc, and both have the same photoshop performance when drawing/sketching with them, then why would I use A instead of B (or vice-versa?)

Report · Mar 28, 2014

boo radley 2013 wrote:
thanks, I'm learning something here. Let's say I have two *identical* documents open in Photoshop:
Image A: 16"x20", 300dpi, = 4800x6000 pixels
Image B: 66.667"x83.333", 72dpi, = 4800x6000 pixels
(Image A and B are the same picture, only at different resolutions and print sizes)
Correct Printers will use the image dpi setting and print the pixel the size set.
...are these two images esentially the same? And you're right, I do not notice a difference in photoshop performance betweeen these two images. The brushes work at the same speed on both.
But my question - what's the difference? If both look the same when printed out on the same type of paper, same printer, etc, and both have the same photoshop performance when drawing/sketching with them, then why would I use A instead of B (or vice-versa?)
They should not look the same printed one should be 66" and softer then the 16" inch print if you can not tell the diffence in sharpness when look cloosly you be able to see 66" is bigger the 16"

The amount of time it takes to do something depends on the number of pixels that have to be process and the way the need to be processed, The actual Process,

Lets take for example your example 12" x 12" at 300DPI that is 3600x3600 pixels around 13MP. On my workstation if I create a document that size and zoom all the way out so the 13MP canvas fits on screen and I use my wacom tablet with a good sized normal brush and make quick rapet strokes. I may see a little lag but not a problem lag. If I zoom in so actual pixel are displayed there is no delay. For I'm only working on a 2MP area of the 13MP canvas. I'm 73 not that fast any more. Now if I use a large tip mixer brush it a different story. There is quite a big lag when zoomed out and a noticeable lag when zoomed in with a large brush tip. Small brush tips when zoomed in lag would not be a problem.

The advantage of working with a 13MP canvas when your zoomed to actual pixels the pixels you editing at the actual 300 DPI pixels. If you work with a 13MP canvas and you use wet mixer brushes all the time and find the lag bothersome. You could try using a smaller canvas size like 6MP then up sample to 13MP when done an see if it prints acceptably I would think the it would. It like up sizing a 12"X12: 200DPI image to a 12"x12" 300dpi the mage my become a little softer but I think is would still be acceptable

JJMack

Report · Mar 28, 2014

appreciate the help. bottom line, it seems that my scenario (image A vs. image B) are the same - so it doesn't matter which one I work in. I just don't know why the option is there in the first place to change the resolution/pixels if both scenarios perform the same and look the same when printed out.

Report · Mar 28, 2014

Good gracious. This thread has taken a long time getting nowhere.

Boo, forget entirely about DPI unless you intend to print the image. As JJ has told you, it is a meanliness number otherwise. If drawing or compositing, it is only the number of pixels that matters, because more pixels give more detail. I like to work at at least 3000 x 2000 pixels so I can zoom in and do fine detail. I'd only use >5000 pixels on the long side if I was printing.

Then I will keep this high res image as a master, and resize it down according to the media it will be used on. But even those numbers have changed in recent years. 1024 x 768 used to be as big as folk would use for a web based image, but I use 1600 or even 2000 pixels wide nowadays because displays are getting biger and with higher resolution.

So please please forget about dpi unless you intend to print.

Report · Mar 28, 2014

i DO intend to print - which is why i'm trying to figure this all out. i need to print out at 16x20.

so whether it's option A or B makes no difference. For option B (72dpi, before printing it, I would need to first flatten the image and then reduce its physical size from 66"x83" down to 16"x20" first).

forgive me for all the extensive questions - but all along i've been obsessed with using a 300dpi because i've always thought this is automatically a better printout result. Which seems to not be the case after all this time

Report · Mar 28, 2014

If you are printing at 16x20 (inches?) then you could get away with a bit under 300dpi, but if you have the pixels, use them.

If you are creating from scratch, then definitely use 300dpi. Is this a photograph, or what?

Report · Mar 28, 2014

it's starting from scratch. All drawing and painting with chalk, watercolor and pastel brushes. Trying to emulate a real traditional, canvas-type look. A pastel portait, for example. There's no photograph. Just a blank photoshop document to start it off.

Same image/painting, with these characteristics:

a) 16"x20", 300dpi = 4800pixels x6000pixels... excellent image quality when drawing/painting in photoshop at print size, and also when zooming in - I can zoom in very closely (way closer than print size) before anything becomes "pixellated" or "blocky"

then, after dropping the same image down to 72dpi (just drop the dpi to 72, do not change pixel pr physical dimensions):

b) it now becomes 16"x20", 72dpi = 1152pixels x 1440pixels... good image quality when viewed at print size (but not as good), and horrible image quality when zooming in even one level above print size.

..what am I missing here. For the 72dpi one to look as good as the 300dpi, do I need to first drop it to 72dpi, and then increase the pixel dimensions *back up* to 4800x6000 to achieve the same clarity? If so, then the physical dimensions of the image increase way up to 66.667" x 83.333" - does this mean that the image will print out at this size? If so, then obviously I would redeuce the physical size back down to 16"x20" and voila - it's like I'm going in circles. I'm as frustrated as anyone else in this topic, but moreso for me because I'm just not seeing where the difference lies, and I'm clearly missing something that's probably so simple.

Report · Mar 28, 2014

Stop thinking in terms of DPI. Stop stop stop also stop voila there is no magic.. Quality has to do with the quality of pixels and the number of pixels. If you do not have a sufficient number of high quality pixels you can not print a high quality high resolution image. If you have billions of low quality pixels can print a low quality image at a high dpi resolution. DPI does not equal quality. High resolution can help you not loose quality but you need a sufficient number of pixels to print at a high resolution. Just because you have a billion pixels does not mean you have a high quality image. Having a huge amount of pixels can store a great deal of detail. You have the protensial the ability to store a deal of detail. The other part of the story is the quality of the pixels and the quantity of details. When the multi million dollar Hubble space telescope was first launched it could not capture a good image. It could not focus because its mirror was ground wrong. Men had to install corrective lens to compensate for the mirrors incorrect shape. Let say the Hubble camera can capture a billion pixels one may say so what its subject is the universe which has way more then a billion stars. The Hubble can only capture small area of the universe because of its limited field of view and the small amount of pixels it can record limits the detail it can capture.

JJMack

Report · Mar 28, 2014

i'd like to add something here - after researching this a bit more, I've discovered a setting which has yet to be mentioned: the setting is "resample image" and is found in the window when you re-size the document. I have had this option checked on all this time (it's the default). So this meant that every time I went from 300dpi to 72dpi, it also reduced the amount of pixels... which totally reduced the quality of my image in terms of being able to edit it/zoom in closely to it to paint details. If I deselct 'resample image' before sizing down to 72 dpi, then nothing about the image quality changes - becausr the amount of pixels now stays the same - hence this is the problem I've been dealing with all this time. I didn't realize that I could keep the quantity of pixels the same by simply un-checking this option. I knew this was something simple, but I couldn't figure it out.

You must de-select 'resample image' when reducing the dpi in your document to maintain the same clarity when continuing to edit your image. Took a while for me to find this information, though...

the only last stumbling block is to now understand that if you reduce down to 72dpi and keep 'resample image' deselected, then the image quality remains the same but the document size increases from something like 16"x20" way up to 66"x83"... does this now mean that when you print it, it's going to print out at that enormous size (66"x83")?

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