Photoshop Conversion Options under "Convert to Profile" not updating as expected

[Chris.S]

Question: If I update my Color Settings in Photoshop, then I immediately follow it up with "Edit » Convert to Profile…”  is this dialog box supposed to pick up the Conversion Options (i.e. Rendering Intent), that was applied in the Color Settings? If it is, Photoshop appears to be buggy/inconsistent in this regard...

Background: I have specific rendering intents that I want used based on the Color Settings that are selected to ensure that conversion technique is used when converting from sRGB to CMYK. When choosing "Image » Mode » CMYK” it appears to work as expected.

Issue: Some of our vendors prefer to use “Convert to Profile…” instead. When using this method, I noticed Photoshop is inconsistent/buggy about whether it will pick up the Conversion Options settings from the Color Settings in this dialog box. It appears Photoshop 2022 did it OK frequently, but now Photoshop 24.1.0 doesn't even attempt to update them after they were updated in the Color Settings.

Steps to reproduce the issue:

(Photoshop 23.3.2 vs Photoshop 24.1.0 on Ventura 13.2.1)

1. Open any image in Photoshop

2. Go to Edit » Color Settings

3. Either select a new “Settings” from the list that will update the Intent to something other than the Relative Colorimetric default, or simply change the “Intent” to something different (i.e. Saturation).

4. Select OK in the Color Settings dialog

5. Go to Edit » Convert to Profile...

Expected Result (sometimes):

» In Photoshop 23.3.2 » The Rendering Intent in this dialog box was correctly updated to what I set in the Color Settings (i.e., Saturation)… at least the first time, but not always.

Undesired Result:

» In Photoshop 24.1.0 » Rendering Intent does not get updated to what was set in the Color Settings (i.e. stays as Relative Colorimetric)

[Chris.S]

Clarificatino... appears to be buggy/inconsistent in Photoshop 23.3.2 as well... last week it wasn't working properly when I tested it as reported above (actually took a video of it then to prove), now when I retried it again (after resetting the Photoshop preferences) it appears to be updating as expected... at least for today.

[D Fosse]

It depends on the target profile. Not all profiles support rendering intents.

Standard RGB working space profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto) do not support rendering intents - or rather, it's hard-wired: whatever you choose, you get relative colorimetric.

Most CMYK profiles, and most RGB inkjet print profiles should support it though. Haven't heard of any Photoshop bugs concerning this.

[Chris.S]

@D Fosse, this is a standard conversion from sRGB to CMYK where it appears to be buggy (whether it will pick up the rendering intent under "Convert to Profile" that was set in the Color Settings or not). I have a case open with Enterprise Support.

[TheDigitalDog]

Question: If I update my Color Settings in Photoshop, then I immediately follow it up with "Edit » Convert to Profile…”  is this dialog box supposed to pick up the Conversion Options (i.e. Rendering Intent), that was applied in the Color Settings?

By @Chris.S

No. Convert to Profile is totally separate (Mode change would take that setting going RGB to CMYK as set in Color Settings). Convert to Profile should be sticky. It is independent of the Color Settings. 

[Chris.S]

@TheDigitalDog, I don't believe what you state is correct that Convert to Profile is independent of the Color Settings... perhaps what you mean is they can be changed independingly under Convert to Profile, but they aren't completely independent as a change in Color Settings will update at least some of the settings under Convert to Profile when you go back into it.

When you make a change to the CMYK profile in the Color Settings and go back into Convert to Profile, you'll see the default profile under CMYK has changed to what it was updated to in the Color Settings. You of course can change it here, the two are (appropriately) linked to an extent. This can be said of Photoshop 2023 and prior versions.

In the case of the Conversion Options that I'm inquirying about, those appear to be finicky. I've recorded a video (attached) to show how it is behaving differently in 2022 vs 2023 on my machine. In the first half of the video, I show Photoshop 2022 where the Rendering Intent starts out set to Relative Colorimetric under Convert to Profile dialog, then go to Color Settings, change it to Saturation, then go back to Convert to Profile to see that it changed to Saturation in the Convert to Profile dialog as well.

I repeat the process in the second half of the video in Photoshop 2023. However, this time, Convert to Profile does not reflect the update to Saturation that was made in the Color Settings as it did in Photoshop 2022.

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

They each have separate settings and there's no reason why they should be linked. I wouldn't expect that.

Generally, I don't see any reason to ever use Image Mode. Stick with Convert so that you actually see what you're converting into.

[TheDigitalDog]

@TheDigitalDog, I don't believe what you state is correct that Convert to Profile is independent of the Color Settings...

By @Chris.S

That's fine. I can't force you to be correct. 

This isn't a bug FWIW, Mode Change and Convert to Profile are as outlined but not accepted, independent of each other. Since 1997. 

All the color settings do in Convert to Profile is alter the profile "Working" to make it easier to spot what you've set for working color spaces, otherwise, it's sticky and you can set anything there for CMYK or otherwise you desire.

[Chris.S]

@TheDigitalDog, I'm not sure what to call it when it works one way in 2022 and differently in 2023. Perhaps there's a better word for this than a bug? I don't want to get hung up on that word though. Based on the video I shared, PS 2023 works differently than PS 2022 on whether the Conversion Options get updated; that's what I was getting at. If it picked the Rendering Intent change up under 2022, it seems logical it would do the same under 2023, and if not, it would be worthwhile for Adobe to look into it.

@D Fosse, This is workflow depenedent. Convert to Profile will probably work for most people since most are in charge of choosing what they want to use for the rendering intent. However, if you work with multiple sites that do the image editing and conversion and you want to establish a standard for how those images are converted to maintain consistency across sites, when sharing work, etc. it does matter. When you have a lot of profiles that use different rendering intents, it's not realistic for an operator to know when to use the rendering intent you want them to use for consistency. That's where the Image Mode change works its magic as it consistently picks up this information from the Color Settings. As long as everyone uses the Color Settings + Mode change method, all works fine. This is how I ask it be done to conform to our standards. However, we've recently found that some sites are using the Convert to Profile method instead. They are thinking 2023 picks up the rendering intent that was set in the Color Settings, as worked in 2022, but that no longer works, or at least not consistently, and therein lies the problem...

[TheDigitalDog]

When you have a lot of profiles that use different rendering intents, it's not realistic for an operator to know when to use the rendering intent you want them to use for consistency. 

By @Chris.S

Nope, if you care about the conversions, you examine the rendering intents visually, as this is all image specific. 

Further, there are no rules in how a profile maker can create a perceptual rendering. Like E6 film, the rendering is subjective. Profile Maker A for printer A will produce a visually different perpetual rendering on an image than Profile Maker B for the same printer. Blindly converting without viewing (which Convert to Profile provides) is what serious users making color conversions will pick, not Mode Change (blindly). 

[TheDigitalDog]

The current version of Photoshop is consistent in how it has always worked: Convert to Profile is sticky! If you set a color space (say sRGB) and Rendering Intent (RelCol) and click OK, open a new document, that's precisely what will be shown next time. This isn't a bug. It's always worked this way. All the options in Convert to Profile will remain the next time you use it. Despite what was set in Color Settings. 

[Chris.S]

@TheDigitalDog, did you review the video I uploaded?

[TheDigitalDog]

@TheDigitalDog, did you review the video I uploaded?

By @Chris.S

Yes. 

Did you try Convert to Profile two+ times in a row?

[Chris.S]

If you set a color space (say sRGB) and Rendering Intent (RelCol) and click OK, open a new document, that's precisely what will be shown next time. This isn't a bug. It's always worked this way. All the options in Convert to Profile will remain the next time you use it. Despite what was set in Color Settings. 

By @TheDigitalDog

There may be some confusion as this wasn't what I was asking. I understand that if you change the Rendering Intent in Convert to Profile, accept those changes (proced with the convert), and then open another file and go into Convert to Profile that it will keep those same "last used settings" that were under Convert to Profile previously (when you don't make a change to the Color Settings in between).

The difference I'm trying to figure out, as shown in the video, is that when you change the rendering intent under the Color Settings in between those steps (i.e. immediately prior to) using Convert to Profile, the Conversion Options (Rendering Intent, BPC) get updated in the Convert to Profile dialog the next time you go into it to match what you had set in the Color Settings immediately prior (in PS 2022, but not in PS 2023).

Did you try Convert to Profile two+ times in a row?

By @TheDigitalDog

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "did I try it two+ times in a row".

If this is in relation to seeing if Convert to Profile holds the same settings as what you had used previously (without changing the Color Settings in between), then yes... I realize Convert to Profile will default to the last used settings under the Convert to Profile in this case, and therefore may not match what is in the Color Settings.

If you are asking if I repeated the process shown in the video two+ times, yes to that also; the results were the same as shown in the video. If you mean something else, please elaborate and I can try.

Put another way, what I'm seeing is: where CS = Color Settings and CP = Convert to Profile:

1. Anytime CS gets changed, it impacts CP defaults (in 2022*, not 2023*)

2. Anytime CP gets changed, it impacts future CP defaults (no longer matches CS), until the next time the CS gets changed (then defer to #1).

* Based on my machine/setup. Am I the only one seeing this?

[TheDigitalDog]

As explained, Convert to Profile (other than the "Working" label shown) is independent of anything in Color Settings. 

I have Color Settings for this (toggling from my saved Settings for illustration only):

Color Settings

I go into Convert to Profile with a document and I have this:

Convert to Profile1

I can change that profile to say sRGB. sRGB isn't anywhere set in the Color Settings above. The rendering intent differs. 

I set sRGB and click OK. The image gets converted.

I open another document and go back to Convert to Profile:

Convert To Profile is sticky

I go into Color Settings, it looks exactly like the first screen capture. 

Convert to Profile is totally separate (Mode change would take that setting going RGB to CMYK as set in Color Settings). Convert to Profile should be sticky. Convert to Profile IS sticky. 

It is independent of the Color Settings.

Nothing I set in CS affects Convert to Profile or vice versa.

It has always worked, as shown above. 

If it isn't doing this for you, reset your preferences, and please, running two versions of Photoshop that share said preferences isn't a very good idea. 

[Chris.S]

@TheDigitalDog, I don't disagree with the method that you've shown would result in what you have shown, but it's a bit different than what I'm trying to figure out. 

Coindicentally, I went back and tested the issue again and this time both 2022 and 2023 were behaving the same (unrelated)! Change the Rendering Intent in Color Settings, then go back into Convert to Profile and the Rendering Intent is unchanged.

I thought I was crazy so went back and watched my video to confirm it had behaved diferently earlier, which it had (change Color Settings and Convert to Profile got updated in 2023). I also know that I had tested it several other times today and had seen results consistent with what I had reported initially.

So now the why... based on your comment about having two Photoshop versions running, I figured perhaps that could explain it. I quit them both. Tried one at a time and saw the results were the same (no relationship to Color Settings and Convert to Profile).

Next, I deleted the Photoshop 2023 Settings file (Shift+Option+Command) on Open, and tried it again... this made it perform the way I had been stating previously (Change Color Settings and Convert to Profile gets changed). The same thing happened when I deleted the Photoshop settings file for 2022 (which appeared to be different settings). This would explain the finicky/bugginess I had been seeing as I had tried that once before.

Now at least I believe I know what is happening... and why we are both (at least partially) right! 

Resetting/deleting the Photoshop Settings file makes the Convert to Profile behave as I had been stating (Color Settings updates will update the settings under Convert to Profile). This will remain true for as often as you change the Color Settings; but only so long as you use Convert to Profile without changing any of those settings (converting using settings as were picked up from the Color Settings). However, once you change the settings in the Convert to Profile dialog box, the changing of the Color Settings Conversion Options (ie Rendering Intent) gets broken with the Convert to Profile dialog and it stops working as it had been.

Since you regularly use Convert to Profile, this would explain why it wouldn't be linked at all for you. I would guess that if you discard your Photoshop Settings file (of course backing it up first), you would see something similar. If you wouldn't mind giving it a try and letting me know, that would be great!

I can totally see why one might want to change the settings under Convert to Profile indepenent of the Color Settings, but don't really see the logic why the Color Settings would update the Convert to Profile settings until it's broken for the first time with a change in the Convert to Profile settings. Either do it, or don't, otherwise it gets confusing for people that may rely on it one way or the other. My 2 cents.

[Chris.S]

Long story short, I think the answer to my original question (unless Adobe offers a change/patch, or if someone else finds something that differs) is:

• If you want to ensure you always pick up everything from the Color Settings when converting to CMYK, chose Image » Mode » CMYK.
• If you want the flexiblity to change conversion techniques independent of what is in the Color Settings, choose Convert to Profile.
• Do NOT rely on Convert to Profile to always pick up the Conversion Options from the Color Settings; once a change is made under the Convert to Profile dialog, the link gets broken with the Color Settings, and will only be reset when the Photoshop settings are restored/deleted.

* This applies to conversions like sRGB to CMYK and does not include intermediate assigning that may need to be done separately, such as assigning sRGB_v4_Appearance when using that with Perceptal Rendering intent, that would need to be done prior to the CMYK conversion.

[Chris.S]

Adobe Enterprise Support also reported finding (as I just did as well), that another way to re-couple the Convert to Profile settings with the Color Settings (besides resetting the Preferences) is to match the Convert to Profile settings to the Color Settings and do a conversion. From that point on, the defaults under Convert to Profile will be reset to match what is set under Color Settings, until such time as a change is made in the Convert to Profile which will decouple them again until the process is repeated. 

[TheDigitalDog]

 From that point on, the defaults under Convert to Profile will be reset to match what is set under Color Settings, until such time as a change is made in the Convert to Profile which will decouple them again until the process is repeated. 

By @Chris.S

Except when it doesn't; the case for me since again, it's sticky by design. 

The question asked:

“If I update my Color Settings in Photoshop, then I immediately follow it up with "Edit » Convert to Profile…”  is this dialog box supposed to pick up the Conversion Options (i.e. Rendering Intent), that was applied in the Color Settings?”

The answer: no!

[Chris.S]

@TheDigitalDog: LOL... gotta give you another bone for sticking to your hard and fast "no" as opposed to "sometimes", or "it depends". For a digital dog, feels like instead of chopping on the bone I threw that we could both be right, I got back a bite. hehe

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing the insight that they weren't linked on your system . The extra effort of the screen shots you shared helped me get to the root of the problem I was trying to address. I like getting to the bottom of things to understand the whys so I can make an informed decision on how to proceed.

Next time I'll try to frame my initial question better before hitting post... I tried to edit it initially, but far as I can see this forum doesn't allow editing like others do so it's not easy to improve on my original question; and later clarifications don't always seem to stick. 😞

[TheDigitalDog]

@TheDigitalDog: LOL... gotta give you another bone for sticking to your hard and fast "no" as opposed to "sometimes", or "it depends". For a digital dog, feels like instead of chopping on the bone I threw that we could both be right, I got back a bite. hehe

By @Chris.S

You asked a specific question, and two very experienced users and community experts provided the correct answer:

"Convert to Profile is totally separate (Mode change would take that setting going RGB to CMYK as set in Color Settings). Convert to Profile should be sticky. It is independent of the Color Settings. "

"They each have separate settings and there's no reason why they should be linked. I wouldn't expect that."

How to proceed?  Also answered:

"Generally, I don't see any reason to ever use Image Mode. Stick with Convert so that you actually see what you're converting into".

"Nope, if you care about the conversions, you examine the rendering intents visually, as this is all image specific. "

[NB, colourmanagement]

@TheDigitalDog "Generally, I don't see any reason to ever use Image Mode. Stick with Convert so that you actually see what you're converting into".

yep, totally agree with that, the rendering intent needs user attention. 

neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[Chris.S · Accepted solution]

Question: If I update my Color Settings in Photoshop, then I immediately follow it up with "Edit » Convert to Profile…”  is this dialog box supposed to pick up the Conversion Options (i.e. Rendering Intent), that was applied in the Color Settings? If it is, Photoshop appears to be buggy/inconsistent in this regard...

The Conversion Options (i.e., Intent, Black Point Compensation) in "Convert to Profile..." will remain synchronized with the corresponding setting in "Color Settings..." as long as it is not changed within "Convert to Profile...". However, once the setting is changed within "Convert to Profile..." it decouples from the corresponding setting in "Color Settings...". This will remain the case until they are once again set to matching entries, upon which, the synchronization will re-couple so that they remained synchronized (but only if it is changed in "Color Settings...").

"Convert to Profile" will give you more flexibility to define your own options on an image-by-image basis and a preview for quick review. It also offers options for conversions in the same color mode (RGB: P3 » RGB, multi-channel profiles, etc.) that the Color Settings do not support.

On the other hand, if the desire is to consistently pickup the profile and conversion options that are set in the "Color Settings", and that conversion technique is available based on your file (i.e. RGB » CMYK), then "Image » Mode" will consistently convert the file based on what is in the "Color Settings" and is not impacted by what is in the "Convert to Profile" dialog box.

[TheDigitalDog]

http://digitaldog.net/files/PhotoshopColorSettings.mp4

Photoshop CC Color Settings and Assign/Convert to Profile video

[Chris.S]

http://digitaldog.net/files/PhotoshopColorSettings.mp4

Photoshop CC Color Settings and Assign/Convert to Profile video

By @TheDigitalDog

You have a gift for presenting/speaking. This is a great tutorial for beginners. Nicely done.

Two edits you may wish to consider...

I'd suggest offering the same advice you provided for untagged profiles (in the first part covering "Assign Profile") for mistagged profiles. Specifically, whenever possible, always first try to get the correctly tagged profile, whether untagged or mistagged. Unfortunately in the industry I've found this can happen more often than you think, especially in packaging where hundreds/thousands of profiles/substrates/finishes may exist that could be drastically different. 

Also, I'd suggest a little more discussion/distinction on Absolute Colorimetric and why a beginner should treat that a bit differently than the other rendering intents than weighing them all pretty much the same. Typically wouldn't use that unless for proofing or a color space that is the same size or bigger with the same white point.