Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

[_Peter_Mars_]

This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete

[_Peter_Mars_]

I am going to try this on a different machine also running CS3. Maybe something is corrupted or I got a bad version or build.

[_Peter_Mars_]

Well the test on a different machine is complete. Photoshop does exactly the same thing when using "Save for Web". The visual difference is that the other machine, my G4 dual, uses an older Sony Multiscan 500PS monitor which is not as sensitive to the difference in color saturation like the Dell 2407 WFP HC is. This is a case of using a better tool to highlight the problem. "Better" meaning more suited to highlighting this problem. My conclusion... Photoshop is F'd up! You all may not be seeing this as obvioiusly as I am, but I am not imagining this. There is a BIG problem with Photoshop CS3 and the "Save for Web" feature.

Perhaps my Dell 2407 WFP HC is highlighting the problem because it has inherently more saturation than a Cinema display, but it certainly points out the problem with PS CS3

Using less sensitive tools is never the correct way to troubleshoot. It may be amplifying the saturation difference, but it certainly proves my point.

Would somebody please slap those adobe folks for me?!

[_Peter_Mars_]

For anyone curious... "Save As" and "Save for Web" both have this color shift problem.

Were told that most web browsers (windows) disregard profiles, and therefore assume sRGB, and so we should create in sRGB for the web. So why do sRGB images display incorrectly?

When I check "ICC Profile" in the Save for web window, everything works fine on my mac, in Preview, Safari, Camino, FireFox, etc. But leave the profile out and colors ONLY look correct when opened in photoshop. This makes absolutely no sense.

If someone comes up with an answer, please let me know.

[Guest]

""Save As" and "Save for Web" both have this color shift problem."

I really don't get any color shift going to "Save As".

[_g_ballard_]

Save for Web (SFW) changed CS2-CS3
http://www.gballard.net/psd/save_for_web_embed_ICC_profile.html

If your monitor is calibrated to 2.2/6500, you have Converted to sRGB, you should see very little if any color/saturation change when going to SFW or ImageReady. If you do see the shift, go back and check your CS3 SFW settings to Convert to sRGB, and strip the profile space.

Again, don't choose embed profile options (untag the file), and FireFox, Opera, Safari will display the colors the same.

Your problem is very easy to pinpoint in Photoshop> View> Proof SetUp> Monitor RGB.
This strips the profile and previews it the same as your FireFox, Opera, Safari browsers will.

If you see the jump here (Monitor RGB), your system is screwed up or you have an odd approach to monitor profiling (a bad monitor profile).

Also, look at View> Proof SetUp> Windows RGB (this is how calibrated Windows monitors will display your color and it should be very close to your Monitor RGB).

[_Peter_Mars_]

Hi.... very interesting experiment. Here's what happens when I do the Proof Setup > Monitor RGB thing.

First of all... I'm using an Adobe RGB image master... I open it and get the Profile Mismatch Screen... I choose Use Enbedded profile... all looks well.

Next I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... again all looks well, no change that I can tell.

Then I try Convert to Profile > Working Space sRGB-2.1... all still looks well... but now, when I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... I see the insane oversaturated look that is driving me nuts.

I hope this means something to you because I am lost by now.

Pete

[Guest]

I'm getting something different. When I go to SFW and uncheck the "Convert to sRGB" option, the jpeg image look very very close to the original PSD image. What is that saying?

[_Peter_Mars_]

I have been converting to sRGB before going to SFW, but I have the Convert to sRGB checked anyway. I figure it couldn't hurt.

I am suspecting that converting to sRGB is not working properly. Monitor proofing looks fine unless I have converted to sRGB..... weird.

[_Peter_Mars_]

Why does an untagged sRGB image display different in a browser, than a tagged sRGB image?
Is there something fundamentally wrong with the file?

[Guest]

I work in Adobe RGB and let SFW convert. I don't see a problem.

It just may be that Dell monitor you are using. in conjunction with the calibrator.

[_Mike_Ornellas_]

> Why does an untagged sRGB image display different in a browser, than a tagged sRGB image?

Some web browsers will honor profiles, and some don't.

Save for web is broken and will continue to be broken until fixed.

The file is not fundamentally broken unless you are breaking it.

[_Peter_Mars_]

How could the Dell monitor be causing this... in conjunction with the profile? Any ideas how I could test this theory without buying a different monitor? My old Sony Multiscan 500PS is too tired these days, but does show some of the same color shifting. Perhaps I should disable the monitor profile and/or make a new one using the built-in apple eye-ball calibrator?

I just figured that the dell is so much sharper and richer that it shows the problem more betterer... Thoughts?

[_Peter_Mars_]

Some web browsers will honor profiles, and some don't.

Yes, and all assume sRGB unless told otherwise... so why the problem when using untagged sRGB... it is sRGB after all. Unless there are different sRGB profiles... could that be a possibility? Is Photoshop assigning the wrong sRGB profile?

[_g_ballard_]

>> First of all... I'm using an Adobe RGB image master... I open it and get the Profile Mismatch Screen... I choose Use Enbedded profile... all looks well. Next I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... again all looks well, no change that I can tell.

This has further confused the issue on several points, not the least of which version PS you are doing this with?
>> AdobeRGB> Convert to Profile > Working Space sRGB-2.1... all still looks well... but now, when I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... I see the insane oversaturated look that is driving me nuts.

That is your strongest clue...it sounds like you have a bad system or bad monitor profile. To rule out the monitor profile: Set sRGB as your monitor profile in System Prefs> Displays> Color.
>> Adobe RGB image master... I open it and get the Profile Mismatch Screen... I choose Use Enbedded profile... all looks well. Next I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... again all looks well

That doesn't make sense, stripping an embedded AdobeRGB profile should desaturate the color in Softproof MonitorRGB, especially the reds -- you have something wacky going on there.

At this point I think you need to review the links and get a grip about how color management and profiles work...

BTW, forget about setting ColorSync in PS COlor Settings, use Adobe ACE.

MO,
I think SFW is fixed under CS3 🙂 By default it Converts to sRGB and strips the profile.

[_Peter_Mars_]

"use embedded profile" causes PS CS3 to honor the embedded profile (always choose this when a mismatch is detected) then go to "Convert Profile" for a smooth conversion. I have done this... no problem so far. PS is not stripping the profile, it is honoring it. I just read all this at your site I believe. Then I convert to sRGB in preparation for SFW. That's where the problem is... the conversion to sRGB... it is not doing this properly... IMO.

Proof setup > monitor RGB looks fine in Adobe RGB but not in sRGB, after the conversion.

I am not stripping the AdobeRGB profile... I am converting it to sRGB.
How would you suggest converting it to sRGB before SFW?

Of course I am using Adobe ACE, and I am using CS3

[Guest]

>using untagged sRGB

If its untagged how can it be sRGB?

> just figured that the dell is so much sharper and richer that it shows the problem more betterer...

Just because a monitor is over saturated or overly sharp does not mean its better. I would think someone using a Dell is doing so because they can't afford an Apple or an Ezio. I would not put Dell and Quality in the same category. Also the huey is not the best calibrator either. The Huey has been the cause of many a color profile issue discussed in the Color Management Forum. This is another product that Is cheap.

[Guest]

"I would think someone using a Dell is doing so because they can't afford an Apple"

No, I ordered the 23" Cinema Display and it showed up at my door with a dead pixel right in the middle of the screen. I'm not paying $1000.00 for a monitor with a dead pixel.

[_Peter_Mars_]

The dell monitor is not creating colors where there are none.
I have stated that my G4 with Sony Multiscan500PS also shows a color shift... more saturation to be exact... just not as noticable. The difference is that the sony crt is not capable of more saturation. The Dell is revealing the increased saturation because it can... not because it is better. The Sony CRT is not revealing the full saturation increase because it cannot.

Photoshop is changing my files and I do not want it to. All I am trying to do is discover why this is so.

Besides more people are browsing the web with simple, basic LCD screens... if I see it, they will see it too. Perhaps your screen is incapable of seeing the difference in the images I have posted? Either way... only my SFW jpg photos look like crap... my general PS working screen is just fine.

I will investigate the HUEYPro for issues, anything is possible I guess.

I just don't understand why it is so difficult to communicate the problem I am having. I cannot save JPG's from photoshop with CS3

Here is an image I made in CS1 that displays perfectly in ANY browser... why?
Please try it yourself... If you have the answer, please let me know.
It is an untagged RGB file with SFW in CS1

http://www.hostzombie.com/cs3/test.jpg

[large image replaced with its link]

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

MO and Peter appear very likely to be right: Save For Web is messed up.

Just try the 4-up view. (!!! %() You'll get at least one of those views with absurdly wrong colors.

The reason I hadn't noticed it is because I always use the Optimized view ("one-up") and Uncompensated Color, in which case everything works OK, and I very seldom use JPEGs anyway.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

If I don't use uncompensated color and view the Original tab, the original looks miserably, sickly green.

[_Mike_Ornellas_]

>MO,
I think SFW is fixed under CS3 By default it Converts to sRGB and strips the profile.

It's only partially fixed. aka - still not functioning correctly to make it seamless and function as expected.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

Well, I take it back.

I hereby withdraw all my comments in #14, 43 and 44.

In the last two hours I've been doing nothing but continuing to test this and answer the door to give treats to little goblins, monsters, witches, pirates and princesses and I have not been able to replicate any of the extremely weird issues I was seeing in Save For Web last night and earlier today.

I'll continue testing to see if I can duplicate whatever conditions made it go crazy earlier.

For the past two hours, all functions of Save For Web are acting correctly, as they should.

If I manage to see the issues again, I'll report back. Otherwise, I'll just go sit in the corner.

[_Mike_Ornellas_]

I had a blast doing trick or treat this evening. My 4 year old loved it.

Cleaned out -with about 500 or so guests in the Bay Area in our hood.

;o)

[_Larryr544_]

Mike - This happened to me in my early testing of SFW. At first nothing worked right. Then it did. For me it's intermittent. And I've never figured out what makes it work and work breaks it. I just try to use it when it's working!!

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

In my case, it was most likely user error.

For one, I did not realize that the flyout menu in the SFW&D dialog (where you selected Use Document Color, Uncompensated Color, etc) applies separately and individually to each of the two or four windows when you use 2-Up or 4-Up view. Setting one does not affect the other one(s), and they can individually and seemingly capriciously set themselves to different value.

Second, I've been able to recreate some of the weirdness I saw only by taking a tagged 16-bit image file in ProPhoto RGB and leaving Uncompensated Color selected. I'll play with it some more tomorrow.