Save A Copy = Stupid

Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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It's so wonderful when an upgrade makes you do 5x the work.  Now to save to different format I have to do a Save A Copy instead of the normal Save As.  So when I save to jpeg, for example, and choose a different folder, everytime I repeat it, Photoshop defaults to the folder the current image is in, not the folder I previously specified.  I takes many more keystroked and mouse clicks to do something that was so simple before.

 

Why did they do this?  The explanation is to make it more like how it behaves on a Mac.  Oh, okay.  So the Mac method was inefficient, but let's do that.  That's progress for you....I guess.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Have you read up on the issue? 

Are you aware of the Photoshop > Preferences > File Handling > Enable legacy »Save As« setting? 

 

 

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Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Okay.  Thanks.  I'll look into that.  How about if they don't make the software less productive and then I won't have to scamble to solve what shouldn't be happing in the first place.

 

The Save A Copy isn't going to another folder after all, but there are other things that you have to do that I didn't mention.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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No, that's not why they did it. They did it because a MacOS change made the old Save behavior impossible.

 

Save A Copy was a way to get around it. Later they found a better workaround, so they could add a "legacy"-option in preferences, to basically revert to the old behavior - but with caveats about unintentional overwriting.

 

Note that no other software on the planet can save directly to jpeg if the file has layers, 16 bit depth, transparency or alpha channels. Those things are not allowed in the jpeg specification. If the file already complies with the jpeg specification, Save works as it always has.

 

Saving directly to jpeg was in fact introduced with some fanfare in Photoshop CS5. That's right. Before that, you couldn't save to jpeg at all, unless the file was flat/8 bit/no transparency.

 

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Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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I used jpeg as an example.  I have to go thru more bs for png and tiff as well.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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@buck-w wrote:

I used jpeg as an example.  I have to go thru more bs for png and tiff as well.


Are you sure? Because tiff supports Layers. 

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Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Well, I go to save a tiff and accidentally do Alt+F S (from years of conditioning), but then there is no option to ignore layers there, so oops, abort, Save As Copy, now I can do it.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Just reign in your temper and change the aforementioned Preferences-setting. 

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Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Unnecessary, but I guess it made you feel good.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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@buck-w wrote:

Unnecessary, but I guess it made you feel good.


Did you enable the »Enable legacy "Save As"«-setting or not? 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Just to sum this up and be perfectly clear:

  • If your file has properties that are not supported in the target file format, you get Save A Copy.
  • If your file satisfies the file format spec, you get Save or Save As.
  • The above applies whatever the file format in question, jpeg, png, tiff, anything.

 

Photoshop introduced a hack (no other word for it) in CS5, that allowed direct saving regardless of file format limitations. Again, no other application on the planet can, or ever could, do that.  No other application on the planet even has a "save a copy". Just so we're clear on that.

 

Until Catalina or Big Sur, can't recall which. Then it was full stop and the hack didn't work anymore.

 

When this was introduced in CS5, I remember thinking it would backfire at some point. And it did. I bet they regret now.

 

I have a feeling that a lot of these complaints come from not understanding the limitations in various file formats. PNG doesn't support layers, jpeg doesn't support anything, and so on. The only formats that support everything you can do in Photoshop are PSD/PSB and TIFF.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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Posts about this non-issue seem to keep turning up on this Forum … one might wonder from which Photoshop versions the authors of those threads have been updating? 

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Explorer ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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From latest to latest.  I'm a modeler and animator, so Photoshop isn't my primary weapon.  I know enough to get by, then things get jerked around.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 06, 2022 Apr 06, 2022

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@buck-w wrote:

... then things get jerked around.


 

In this case — as was said — Apple made a change to the API and Adobe had to find a workaround. This happened in 22.4.2.

 

Jane

 

 

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Guide ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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quote

Note that no other software on the planet can save directly to jpeg if the file has layers, 16 bit depth, transparency or alpha channels. Those things are not allowed in the jpeg specification. If the file already complies with the jpeg specification, Save works as it always has.


By @D Fosse

 

Actually...

PhotoLine offers a setting to allow exactly this: the workaround is that a native PhotoLine file is saved alongside the jpg version as a sidecar file. When the jpg is opened, it will automatically open the native file in PhotoLine - with all layers, live filters, layer effects, etcetera intact. As if the jpg file was saved with all that extra information. 🙂

 

This is an extraordinarily useful and convenient workflow and I wish other design applications would support it.

 

(ps PhotoLine will also allow for saving a file directly to any file format but does display a warning that the selected file format will be flatten the file and lose all live properties)

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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Actually...that sounds like an equally cumbersome workaround, and I can imagine a noise level fully on par with the one we had, if this was implemented in Photoshop. No, on second thought, it would be a lot worse.

 

This is all about habit and short memories. Most of these people are convinced that Photoshop could "always" save directly to jpeg. It even says so in presumably credible articles from well-respected sources - but in fact they have just forgotten how it was up to CS4. They're angry because they feel something has been taken away.

 

Personally, I think Save A Copy is brilliant, because it directly reveals what is actually happening to the data. You instantly know what you're dealing with. That's what they should have done in CS5.

 

In all other instances where people claim other software can do it, e.g. Affinity, it's actually an Export. Which involves launching a separate process and always takes a long time.

 

Oh, BTW, engineer Adam Jerugim is also using the HAL avatar when he posts here. I thought it was him responding first.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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And I seem to recall several cases where the »legacy« save as behaviour tripped people up when they tried to save pdf-copies. 

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Guide ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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@D Fosse But I did prove you wrong: Photoshop is/was not the only image editor to directly save to jpg. 😉

 

All jokes aside, as always: it depends on the workflow and the particular job at hand.

 

For example, the sidecar file option in PhotoLine is a gods-end in my game development work in which I use Godot. I save a wepb or png file directly to the assets' folders and Godot ignores the native PL *.pld files, while importing the webp and png versions automatically. PL also keeps track of each file's location, so to edit and save a file I simply double-click the png or wepb version which opens the *.pld version, then edit the file, and save the new version (ctrl-s). Godot picks up on the changed file and re-imports.

 

Super quick and effective when I am dealing with hundreds of different assets and no need for additional steps such as "save as copy" or exporting.

 

The trouble with "Save a Copy" is that every single time it requires the user to [1] select the file format, [2] confirm the save (because PS warns against overwriting a existing file in my case, [3] deal with the file options dialog, and [4] confirm. Much too cumbersome. Same for the export dialog: a settings dialog, next a Save dialog, and followed up by a "are you sure" file overwite confirmation dialog.

 

Compare PhotoLine: Open, edit, ctrl-s. Done. Switch to other app to test, no need for a reload! Return to PhotoLine, adjust and ctrl-s. It saves and has saved myself an inordinate amount of time in the past few years and is quite brilliant. I wouldn't even want to think about how inefficient and time-consuming Photoshop's "save as copy" or its export would be in comparison.

 

And I can tell Git to ignore my native resource files which are then excluded (aside from Git and GitLab/GitHub, while using a local automated backup and versioning tool to create automated versions and backups of the native source files).

 

I do agree that it puts more responsibility on the shoulders of the user and it requires one to stick to a specific workflow. The point is that this is an optional feature in PhotoLine, though. PL also offers a Generator like option as well as a traditional "save as web" export option. And even a unique live roundtrip option for content in layers or files between itself and other software. Or simply export/import specific layers and layer groups. Or script stuff like in Photoshop.

 

In short, PhotoLine allows itself to be integrated into one's pipeline more easily and according to ones's workflow rather than enforcing a specific workflow.  (And yes: it also supports a dedicated export command to safely save a new version similar to the save as a copy approach in PS, and no: it doesn't take a long time - export, confirm the file dialog and the export settings --which are part of the file export dialog, so only one dialog to deal with-- done.)

 

But with more power comes more responsibility on the part of the user, of course. Photoshop's Save a Copy is, I guess, a more paternalistic approach. Which is good for less advanced users and avoids slip-ups, but detrimental to users who just want to get on with the job and hate to waste unnecessary time.

 

My two opinionated cents. 😉

 

quote

Oh, BTW, engineer Adam Jerugim is also using the HAL avatar when he posts here. I thought it was him responding first.


By @D Fosse

 

Darn it, and here I thought I'd finally come up with an interesting original avatar... Back to the drawing board, I suppose.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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You proved me wrong, but I live well with that. It wasn't my main concern, just a side note. And I still think Photoshop solves this better than what you describe for Photoline.

 

And in any case, none of this bothers me the slightest. I honestly don't understand what people are complaing so much about. Ruining the workflow? Really. All I can say is that my workflow is just fine, and I do this for a living, 8 hours a day, under constant deadline pressure.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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I honestly don't understand what people are complaing so much about. 

Especially after the non-issue has been introduced and resolved … 

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Guide ,
Apr 07, 2022 Apr 07, 2022

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My comment about who is wrong or not was meant in a tongue in cheek manner (see smiley).

 

We agree that it depends on one's workflow. You have yours, I have mine. Whether Photoshop, PhotoLine, or another image editor fits in one's workflow is context and job dependent as well. I hesitate to use the term "better" in these cases - or rather, would qualify the statement by adding "for my/our workflow and job context".

 

What is important to you may not be important to others, and vice versa. I do understand that users in general dislike it when they are forced to change or abandon their familiar workflow, or even a small part of it.

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