What is "Proof Colors" option for?

[TerryLn22]

In PS  CS4, under View, there's Proof Setup, which allows you to view soft proofing, so you can set it for your lab's profiles, so you know about how it will be printed.

However, underneath Proof Setup, is "Proof Colors". What is that for? It's only off/on, no other settings for that. It can't be, that the Proof Setup is turning the "Proof Colors" on or off so you can see how the lab will print it, because the colors change whether "Proof Colors" is checked or not. However, when it's UNCHECKED, and I go into change a potential Proof Colors choice (say from my lab's profile to Nikon's profile), the color of the photo changes, and the Proof Color now has a check in front of it.

So....what's that for, and how do you work that?

[c.pfaffenbichler]

It does too turn the preview on and off, but when a Proof Setup is selected it is automatically turned on.

[Noel Carboni]

It allows you to simulate what your image would look like if interpreted directly in the color space you set, rather than transformed using its profile and a device's profile.  It can also provide you a preview of CMYK color separations.

View - Proof Setup sets the profile you want to simulate or "test" with, and checking Proof Colors enables the "test", overriding normal display color management.  Proof Colors is automatically checked (enabled) when you set a profile in Proof Setup as a convenience feature.

You would normally want to use Photoshop with Proof Colors UNchecked, so that the colors ARE automatically transformed to those needed by your monitor per its profile.  This helps ensure that you'll see them accurately.

Photoshop's Help facility has some additional detail for this.

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

Well this is truly annoying. When Proof Colors is checked, I think I'm good to go. Then a few photos and 1 hour later, I find out it's turned itself off, and I have to redo all the work. You have to remember to turn it on for each and every photo. That's ridiculous.

Is there some way to lock it in on or off position? I don't see a way to do that.

[Noel Carboni]

Jeff, why do you feel you need to work with Proof Colors checked?

Photoshop's normal mode of operation - with Proof Colors unchecked - is to properly transform the color so that what you see on your monitor is accurate.

The setting is not persistent because it's anticipated that you'd use Proof Colors to briefly bypass the normal color management to check things.  If you're having to work with Proof Colors enabled all the time, then maybe you have something set up wrong.

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

Noel,

The reason I wanted Proof Colors checked manually, is because if I am working on a particular job where my customers want prints, then I pull up the needed images, let's say an order of 10 photos, and I'm sending all those to the lab. Proof colors should be like a light switch. When you want the light on, you turn it on. You don't want it to turn off automatically just because it wants to. I was working on 10 photos, checked it to come on, then found out later, you have to manually turn it on, for each photo. Even after I knew that, I made mistakes. It's just normal that you look at a photo, know what you need to do it, be that cropping, brightening, darkening, adding contrast, etc., and so you do those things. Then you find out 15 minutes later after you've made all your corrections, that .... the proof color was off, and you have to redo everything, all over again.

They should just have it so you turn it on, and it's on, until you turn it off.

[c.pfaffenbichler]

»Then you find out 15 minutes later after you've made all your corrections, that .... the proof color was off, and you have to redo everything, all over again.«

Far as I can tell, Proof Color is not program-wide but document-specific (that way two documents can be previewed for different output conditions).

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong – it is not document- but window-specific, so multiple windows of one document can be previewed using different target spaces.

My suspicion is you never turned it on for that document or accidentally turned it off later on.

So you can turn it on document by document or you use r.bin’s recommended way and have it turned on automatically on openeng a document via Script Events Manager.

[Noel Carboni]

All this, of course, is because it's anticipated that "Proof Colors" is a transient setting, that you will enable only for brief periods to check how things look under certain output conditions - which is why I questioned your need to use it long-term.

Just to clarify, you are using Proof Colors to optimize the color of your document for particular output conditions on a non-color-managed system, right?

It doesn't sound like anything in particular is wrong with that, if in fact that's what you're targeting, though it isn't really the approach most take...

Most people with the need for very careful color control take the approach of getting the colors good in a more or less "absolute" sense (e.g., by using normal color management on a calibrated/profiled display), convert profiles as needed, and maybe tweak it a bit at the end for particular output conditions.

Rather than try to edit with Proof Colors enabled, have you considered converting to the output profile before providing the images?

Are you willing to go into, a little deeper, how different "normal color-managed" output is from the specific output conditions you're facing?  I'm not completely sure I understand all the constraints you have.

I'm not trying to be critical of you at all here - I'm just curious about your workflow, and would like to see perhaps we can find a less frustrating alternative where you are doing things in a more typical fashion and the system doesn't fight you.

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

Noel,

Thanks for the interest.

My monitor is calibrated, in fact, I'm using an Eizo CG 221, tough to beat my monitor.

Let's say I shoot a wedding, or family portraits. I get an order for 10 prints or whatever. I downloaded the lab's profiles, and using the Proof Colors option within Photoshop, I can see how the prints will come out from the lab, and tweak them as I see fit, according to the lab's output profiles and how the lab will print them.

But if I pull up 10 images, check the Proof Colors to come on, I think I'm good to go. I tweak the first photo, save the changes, close it. I then do the same for the next 7 photos, until it dawns on me, that the Proof Colors turned itself off; you have to turn it on for each photo.

I guess if that's the way it is, and there's no way to leave it on all the time, then so be it. I'll live with it. If there's a way it can stay on all the time, until I manually turn it off, that'd be better.

Thanks.

jeff

[Noel Carboni]

Does the lab give you instructions about what profile to provide the images in?

To the best of my knowledge, what Proof Colors buys you is a direct interpretation of the RGB values in your image as though it's already in the profile you've selected for proofing.  In other words, the lab isn't expected to interpret the RGB values using any color profile you provide, but rather just print the image in their color profile as though you've already converted it.

Does your lab provide detailed instructions for how to prep the images?  Specifically, do they say to provide the images in their own profile?

It seems to me that, if I've gotten things right about what your lab needs, then you can accomplish what you want by converting your images to the lab's profile (Edit - Convert To Profile) in Photoshop, then edit them with Proof Colors turned off.  This will correctly interpret the document colors for display on your monitor, and should leave the images all prepped perfectly for print on their system.

Do you see any holes in this logic?

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

I could do the convert to file, (or Assign Profile do the same thing?) by inserting the lab's profiles. No problems with that logic. I guess then I could view the photos and tweak them as I see fit on my screen, and simply have the 'Convert To' profile convert them all. That might be the way to do it.

Of course, all the images I output are for prints, in fact, very few. So the flip side, if everything is set to Convert To profile, then I have to remember to turn it off, as it would be "on" all the time. If the "Proof Colors" were on until I manually turned it off, it'd be more 'accessible'. I think of changing the profiles, almost like the "Preferences" tab; you sort of have to dig for it. But oh well.

Thanks.

[Noel Carboni]

Convert to Profile and Assign Profile are completely different functions.

• Convert to Profile changes the RGB values and replaces the existing profile to best represent what you're seeing, but using a different profile.  You would not expect to see a visible difference on the screen with this operation, because both before and after the conversion the colors are being interpreted per the respective profiles into an image that looks essentially the same.

• Assign Profile is for replacing an existing profile without any RGB value changes, because somehow the RGB values already represent proper colors in the new profile.  This would be used in the case of some error in a prior process, and would cause a large difference in the way the image would look.  This is essentially what you're doing temporarily when you set Proof Colors, but it is NOT what you want to do in a normal workflow.

Neither of these things is something to "set", but are activities that are invoked once and done.  I assume you'd Convert to Profile right before generating an image to be printed by the lab, and perhaps not do it when you're publishing for other uses.

Based on your responses, and that you continue to think you want to use Proof Colors, I really think you might want to take some time and brush up on how color management really works - to get your head around it.  It's not something that's easy to get right if you have misconceptions about how things work, and understanding it can make the difference between getting what you expect the first time or having to throw away prints and reorder.

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

It is nearly illegal to learn color management. Books and especially any Adobe "Help" topics (more like anti-help trying to look up answers to questions), nearly by law, have to be difficult to learn. Adobe's Help topics, try to teach you this stuff, piece meal. Nobody can learn like that; it'd take 12 years to read through all the stuff.

The best I've seen, by light years, is Will Crockett's videos, on Monitor to Print match series. In about 5 minutes, you have a pretty good handle on it. However, one thing he completely misses, (not that that learning segment was supposed to cover this), is Adobe Photoshop's color management settings, what they mean, and how they work. That's why I get confused on the Assign Profile, Convert to Profile, Color Profile, ICC profile settings, etc. All confusing, unless someone spells it out for me. Yes, I could read a book, and 3 weeks later, I'd have the answer. Anything I've seen written thus far, again as if by law, has to be really, really difficult, to help make the author look smart, not to teach the student.

I wish someone would do a short video on all the Photoshop color management settings, which would include setting Proof Colors, checking or unchecking the Proof Colors toggle switch we discussed earlier, Assigning profiles, Convert to Profiles, monitor settings, settings for color spaces, dot gain, gray settings, the whole works. Then I would KNOW the answers, not be GUESSING at the answers.

Thanks.

[Chris Cox]

Um, actually it's all pretty simple.  I don't know why people make it out to to be so complicated.

And if you want one reference: get the book Real World Color Management.

[TerryLn22]

Umm, if it's so simple, then why are Adobe Help topics un-learnable? Answer: It's because they break everything down into tiny pieces, with nearly each word, as a hyperlink, so you can read about it. It's like trying to read a dictionary on how to start your car, by way of looking up each word, and reading the descriptions about what each word means...... open, door, insert, key, turn, depress, brake pedal. Nobody can learn like that, and that was just a short example. With Photoshop, there are many more choices within color management.

But I will take a look at the book you recommended.

[Chris Cox]

then why are Adobe Help topics un-learnable

They aren't.  They're very straightforward and tell you all the basics and what each control does.

[TerryLn22]

If you want to learn piecemeal, be my guest.

But what they should do, is explain it all, in about 2 or 3 pages, from start to finish. They don't. You have to click on each term to see what it is. By the time you're done, like using the dictionary, you know the terms, but you don't know what they do, or how it fits into the whole puzzle. You can read all day about parts of a car; a steering wheel, a seat, shock absorbers, fuel tank, etc., but in the end, all you know is terms. You don't know how they all fit and work together.

You can't possibly read "Assign Profile" and RGB, sRGB, embed profile, Proof Color, CMYK, 20% dot gain, etc., and walk away knowing what they do, or how they work, or what settings will work best for you. You're only left with the terminology. Like the steering wheel, you can turn it either way once you're actually behind the wheel of an actual car, but without a map to tell you how to get there, you don't know which way to turn, to get to where you need to go.

[Noel Carboni]

And it's a bit much to try to walk someone through it all on a forum.  I know, I've tried it.

-Noel

[TerryLn22]

All they have to do, which is illegal to do of course, is to spell out color management as though they were talking to a friend. But that's illegal. By law, it has to be a really, really difficult. Plus those who write books, have to make them 534 pages long, to make themselves look really, really smart.

[c.pfaffenbichler]

Jeff, if you work with Photoshop professionally just accept that you have to learn some stuff and, to me at least, it does not seem to be Adobe’s obligation to come after you with spoonfuls of knowledge sized to your current liking.

To stick to the car-analogy: Did the manufacturer of your car teach you how to drive or did you learn that from someone else?

[TerryLn22]

Guys, guys, guys. Stop with this, already. You're trying to defend an undefendable point. The one guy was saying, "Umm, color management is not that hard", then finishes his paragraph by saying get that book on color management, which is 435 pages long.

I use the analogy (and it's ONLY an analogy) about the car, and you're wondering if the car manufacturer came to teach me to drive. The answer is, no, they didn't teach me to drive. However also they didn't give me a technical manual to start the car either, describing in nausiating detail, the electrical impulses that go from the 12v battery into the starter, which then go into the spark plugs which are gapped at .041 spacking, that causes a spark, which makes the gas, which is compressed at a ratio of 4:1, explode, thus causing the piston to rise, which gives power to the engine, which turns the transmission, torqued at an 8:1 ratio, to turn the wheels in a clockwise motion.

No.

If anything, their manual says put the key in the ignition, turn the key, put the car in drive, and depress the gas pedal.

Do you NOW see the difference?

You can't defend your point. You just can't. The Adobe Help topics, defend them as you may, are in piecemeal. You type something up, and it brings up one of 38 articles written about it, etc. And while that might be fine from time to time, like using a dictionary to look up a word or two, you can't use a dictionary to learn a foreign language, or the Adobe help topics to learn Photoshop or color management.

[c.pfaffenbichler]

»You can't defend your point. You just can't. «

You really think so?

»If anything, their manual says put the key in the ignition, turn the key, put the car in drive, and depress the gas pedal.«

I guess that is also because they can assume you have a driver’s license, thus having learned to operate the tool before buying it.

Photoshop is a tool, learning to use it is up to the individual user.

[TerryLn22]

I love how you try to defend, a case that cannot be defended. Quite amusing. Enjoy learning German by reading their dictionaries.

[c.pfaffenbichler]

You might just have to make do and learn like so many other Photoshop-users, acquiring information from sources like the Help (I started using Photoshop when it still shipped with the handbook which admittedly made for a better reading experience than the downloaded pdf), colleagues, fora, publications, classes …

[Noel Carboni]

Jeff, I'm sorry to have drawn you into a debate like this.

The plain and simple fact is, however, that we all learned it.  Some of it was from the Adobe documentation, some of it was from seeking out and reading other sources, and some of it was from experience.

I recommend Google and seeking out web pages that provide color-management overviews.  Read enough of them and it will start to "click" how things are supposed to work.  I only caution you to try to avoid advice that says "set it this way and be done", at least initially.  Just read right past it.  Believe it or not, a lot of folks who don't really understand color management have written articles too.

The level of understanding you're trying to reach is where you will understand why you've been given all the choices (the OS configuration dialogs, the Photoshop configuration dialogs, the settings in Camera Raw, the functions you can choose to do various operations).  It's important to note that ALL of those choices are meaningful.  While you have been set up with some defaults when Photoshop was installed, they are useful for certain kinds of work, and you should visit them all and understand why you want each and every setting.  You may even find yourself purchasing a color measurement device before you're through, so that you can have the best possible calibration and profile for YOUR setup.

-Noel