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Known Participant
June 21, 2022
Question

Which color space should I use? [LOCKED]

  • June 21, 2022
  • 6 replies
  • 5193 views

 

[This thread has been locked by a moderator. Please start a new thread if you have a question about color spaces / profiles.]

 

I am creating illustrations for both web and print. I want the colors to be as bright and vivid as possible—I tend to go for the neons, like lime green, hot pink, highlighter yellow! On the web, I want them to stay as bright and vivid as possible. For print, the same!

 

Which is the best color space/profile to use? There are so many options and I have read conflicting information.

 

Thank you!

This topic has been closed for replies.

6 replies

NB, colourmanagement
Community Expert
Community Expert
June 24, 2022

I'll add a short[ish] comment to all this. 

Make sure you look at all that DigitalDog has posted and linked to. As others have written he is a respected expert, employed by many companies for his colour management skills..

 

SO - What to do?

You have a range of colour [the gamut] coming from the capture, once it's in a workingspace to define the colour. ProPhoto is ok for people who are willing to take the time to understand it and it's safe in one way, because it's not going to clip captured colour. 

 

In any image workflow I'd recommend archiving originals in a colour space that suits the gamut. ProPhoto is good for that as long as the files are kept in 16 bit.

In a workflow for print AND web you're going to need 2 differing files.

 

At an expert level I often recommend specifically tailored digital camera colour spaces [DCAM x] from my friend Joe Holmes, there are some really nice features, but that’s a very high end workflow. 

 

In the print industry, many use Adobe RGB. It's an Adobe default, so has widespread adoption. Print work often [depending on medium] has a better capability for colour reproduction - this means that it can reproduce colours outside the gamut of sRGB.

So using sRGB for print MAY - SOMETIMES clip away detail in saturated areas and desaturate colours that could have been printed. 

When making files for web, sRGB is the default colourspace to use in the current day

[I think P3 colourspace is coming for the web, but not yet].

 

SO 

Archive your edited original in a large colourspace, one which does not clip* original colour, some choose ProPhoto for that. If you used adjustment layers etc then save the layered file [with laters intact in case of later edits], this would be a tiff or PSD file - NOT a Jpeg

 

* after conversion to the colour space, look at Photoshop levels pallete - if ANY image data is at 0 or 255, then that means clipping may already have occurred, as mentioned by D.Fosse.. I like to avoid that for my archived originals.

 

::PRINT::

Copy and repurpose your image for print, flatten [if it has layers]

- in your case perhaps convert to Adobe RGB 1998, resize, sharpen and send for print. IF it's resized and cropped exactly a Jpeg is OK here, but I still prefer tiff or PSD. A Jpeg isn't good if the file may be resized or cropped so get the final size and crop dead right or send a tiff.

 - Of course offset print uses the CMYK colour model but unless you know what you're doing don't stray there. Maybe during prep for print, you'll do a Photoshop 'softproof' with a relevant CMYK** profile as destination colour space to show you the way eventual conversion may affect saturation.

 

**The relevant CMYK** profile can only be confirmed by the printer. You should not guess, certainly not when converting to CMYK, 'softproofing' to a reasonable gamut print space like ISOcoatedV2 or Adobe's FOGRA 39L based CMYK will give an idea what high gamut offset print will look like, so it’s a place to start. FOGRA 39L represents offset sheetfed on coated paper, like a good magazine or company report. Offset web printing [on a roll] is faster so has slightly less ability to reproduce colour and tone.

 

::WEB [Internet]::

Make a copy of the Archived original, flatten [if it has layers] and convert to sRGB IEC61966-2.1. Resize, sharpen and save as a Jpeg*** with the profile embedded.

***A Jpeg isn't good if the file may be resized or cropped so get this right or send your web guy a tiff.

Using "Save as" is a better habit than using "export' or "save for web" IMO. 

 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

Conrad_C
Community Expert
Community Expert
June 22, 2022

The biggest color issue you will need to resolve is this:

 


@austinmdiamond wrote:

I tend to go for the neons, like lime green, hot pink, highlighter yellow! On the web, I want them to stay as bright and vivid as possible. For print, the same!


 

You can make colors as saturated as you like, and to see the colors as vividly as possible, you could buy a wide gamut display and create highly saturated colors way out at the edges of that display’s wide color gamut. That would give you the most satisfying creative experience.

 

But that is probably a bad idea if you want to preserve super saturated colors across all media.

 

That’s because, to get paid, it’s more important for you to ensure consistent color reproduction. To resolve that, you have to temper your expectations by quite a bit. You must work within the color reproduction limits of the final delivery media — web and print, and maybe video. Print in particular cannot reproduce the most vivid colors you can create on screen, and common sRGB displays cannot reproduce the most vivid colors you could create on a wide gamut display. Therefore, you probably want to work in a standard color space that is least likely to get you in trouble, by not showing colors that, for example, can’t be printed. That will probably point you to sRGB as a good working color space. Working in sRGB will at least help ensure that the colors you pick will look OK on the web and in video.

 

But because color spaces are not only different sizes but also shaped differently, you can still create sRGB colors that don’t exist in some print color gamuts. A way out of this dilemma in Photoshop is to open additional windows for the same document, and set those additional windows as soft proofs (simulations) of the final media that your colors must look good in. This will help you preview which day-glo colors actually work in different print media.

 

That’s what is shown below. The first window is the original document in sRGB. The second window is the same document (using Window > Arrange > New Window for…), set to simulate a 4-ink CMYK press specifically using the FOGRA39 standard on coated paper. The third window is also the same document, set to simulate an 8-ink inkjet print on a specific matte paper. You can see how a lot of super saturated colors are altered or simply die in common print color spaces. The inks simply don’t go out that far. You’ll probably want to learn how to set up these alternate soft-proof views to help you avoid unpleasant surprises later, so that your art gives the right impression wherever it’s reproduced.

 

Known Participant
June 23, 2022

Wow. I am really glad I asked this question, as I seem to have correctly ascertained that I am not a crazy/illiterate dolt, and there ARE in fact deeply conflicting "worldviews" (!) about whether sRGB or ProPhoto is better! This has all been very enlightening and helpful, I imagine even for the people commenting! Thank you everyone, Derek for your measured response, D Fosse for your sRGB and Digital for your ProPhoto and video, Conrad for your concise explanation and samples! One last thing, in case it matters, is I am an illustrator (for books). 

 

If there is a way to "sticky" this thread, I definitely feel like this would be helpful for other people to see!! I am sure they have the same questions and have been too afraid or confused to ask! 🙂

D Fosse
Community Expert
Community Expert
June 24, 2022

@D Fosse wrote:

Every time I get into this discussion, people seem to assume that I clip colors. I don't! I keep repeating that. I do it this way because it reduces the total risk or need for clipping.

 

I've never seen any examples of your photography. I know I've never inspected a representative set of your raw images to know if you are or are not clipping colors. I have seen examples of both in my photography and others; colors from raw to Adobe RGB (1998) clip in raw processing. 

 

A lot of the very saturated colors you get out of ACR//Lr, are processing artifacts, meaning it doesn't actually look like that in real life.

 

That is nearly an absurd generalization as when you told us ProPhoto is so large that at least half of it is taken up by colors that can’t be reproduced anywhere else, not even in theory. Your desire to ignore gamut efficiency is noted too. 

 

As for ProPhoto RGB, Kodak, Adobe, and Bruce Fraser are on the record, my testing confirms their analysis and advice on this working space.

I await the new DFosse RGB Working Space. 

 

Lastly, the URL on Histograms only illustrates the misunderstanding of Histograms, nothing to 'prove' anything about ACR/LR so-called "processing artifacts" and zero examples of what you state subjectively and without data "doesn't look like real life" (whatever that massive subjective generalization is supposed to mean). 

 


@D Fosse wrote:

But this ProPhoto dogma is imposed on all of us, whatever we do. It comes from all directions. It's time to question its universal truth. 


 

Please start any time, with actual colorimetric data. As again, Lindbloom, Fraser, Adobe and Kodak (to name just four) have provided. Decades before 8&10 ink very wide gamut desktop photo printers.

 


@D Fosse wrote:

Like all generalizations, it's probably false 😉


 

Yes, Bingo! 


We seem to be going in circles here. I still haven't seen a single argument that goes beyond "ProPhoto is bigger", as if that invalidates all other considerations.

 

Anyway, I've said what I needed to say, I'm not going to repeat everything. It's all up there, anyone can go back and read.

 

So I'm stopping here.

 

 

Known Participant
June 22, 2022

What is e-SRGB? Do you recommend that or sRGB IEC 61966-2.1 when I am creating my document?

 

Digitaldog, you say start in ProPhoto RGB? See why this is confusing? 😛

 

Should I be choosing "embed color profile" when I save them?

TheDigitalDog
Inspiring
June 22, 2022

See:

The benefits of wide gamut working spaces on printed output:

 

This three-part, 32-minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print. 

 

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB, how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affect final output quality. Part 1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better color output. It also covers Photoshop’s Assign Profile command and how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or oversaturated colors due to user error. 

 

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using Photoshop’s Print command to correctly setup the test files for output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test files for output to a lab.

 

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB. [/i]

 

High Resolution Video: http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov

Low Resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs&feature=youtu.be

 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
TheDigitalDog
Inspiring
June 21, 2022

From raw, use the widest gamut color space you can (in Adobe raw converters, that's ProPhoto RGB). Work as long as possible, and make your prints. For the web, resize as is necessary, convert to sRGB.

Get the 'best' of both worlds.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
D Fosse
Community Expert
Community Expert
June 21, 2022

Wrong question and wrong assumption. The color space does not "determine" color in the sense you seem to think. You're not getting any more vivid colors than the output conditions allow, and you need to use a color space that represents the actual output.

 

What you should do is keep master files in a large color space that will keep all the color information. Then you save out copies for different output conditions, in the appropriate color space for that output.

 

For web, as Derek says, that's normally sRGB.

Derek Cross
Community Expert
Community Expert
June 21, 2022

RGB and CMYK colour modes have different gamuts – you need to decide if you want to match the RGB to CMYK or decide to have different looks for each output.

You can't reproduce certain colours, such as bright green and orange, in CMYK. 

sRGB is probably the best space for both outputs, though there are some colour management contributors on this forum who may offer more informed information.