Image size inside smart object issue

[TiagoRocha]

Hi,

I think I came across this issue before, but today it's really confusing me.

So I have this document where I have an image as background that I converted to a smart object, which is now a Linked psb file. When I open that file individually (double click the psb on my computer), the canvas is 5927x3951

I dragged and dropped an image that's 4500x3000 into that same dcument and yet it gets super small: 1080x720. And when I try to Transform, it says that's already at 100%. Sure, I can resize it, because it becomes a smart object when it's Placed, but why does it resize the image to a complete different size and yet says it's at 100%?

I tried with a new document and it behaves the same way.

Also, besides trying to undestand this, is there a way to reset the image size automatically? Does Photoshop keep the original image info so that we can reset it to its original size?

Thanks 🙂

[Bojan Živković]

Photoshop keeps original image but there is something which you should know when placing images. When resolutions does not match, Photoshop will either upscale or downscale image when placing it because one document can not contain multiple resolutions. You can see which are original dimensions by double clicking on Smart Object layer then use either Info panel, Image Size.... to see original dimensions. If you change Resolution to match document in which is placed image then you will have real 100% without any up or down scaling due to resolution missmatch. You can do that after placing image in Smart Object editing mode which is new tab after double clicking on Smart Object thumbnail in the Layers panel.

[JJMack]

Place degrade image by resizing them.  Place should just place in all the images pixels to preserve the image quality like duplicate layer, like copy paste.  If the layer need to be scaled to work with the other layers composition the user will do that. Place resizing simply degrade images it does not fix any scaling issues between layer contents. The user has to scale the Placed Smart Object layer to work with the other layers.  The resizing place does is a bug. Photoshop New Frame Tool use place there are problem with some frame layer cause by place.  I even removed the Frame tool from my Tool bar and disabled its shortcut.

Simply put Print Resolution  has nothing to do with image size and quality.   It just a print setting that set the size that a pixel will be printed. Its a printer setting  a  X wide Y high MP image can be printed any size by changing the printer's ppi setting.   The Image size does not change and the file size does not change. Only the Print size is changed.  Adobe knows this some designer just mess up Place its a bug. A bug that drove me crazy when I first start scripting Photoshop CS2. Once I understood what Place was doing I was able to program around the bug.

[JJMack]

If drag and drop is from outside of Photoshop not dragging between open document. Photoshop is most likely using place to create a smart object layer.  Photoshop's Place has a big issue.  For some reason if the document you are dragging  in the image file into has a different print resolution than the Image File being dragged in. Place will degrade the image being dragged in. The Smart Object Larger object will have a canvas size greater than or smaller than the Image  file's canvas size.   If  you drag a image with 300PPI print resolution into a document the has a 100ppi resolution. Place will create a smart object layer  that  is much smaller then the Image file canvas size.  Here I opened a 8MP image with a 100PPI print resolution iy print like 23" x 35". Then I Placed the same 8MP image that file has a 300ppi print resolution it prints  like 8" x 12". The pixels size printed are different in the prints. Both Image have exactly the same 8MP pixels.  Place degraded the 300ppi image when it create the layers smart object. The Placed image has been reduced in size. 

I then Opened the 300 PPI image in Photoshop and placed in the 100 PPI image and the layers look the same but they are not.  The photoshop's Preference resizd during Place scaled the large smart object layer created down in size to fit on canvas. The layer size is much larger.

I then change the Smart Object layer's associated layer transform to 100% width and height so you can see the actual layer size that place created.

So if you do not want degraded images make sure that the image  being placed in has the same print resolution as the document you are working on.   I wrote a Photoshop script for myself Place No Degrade I use when placing in images.

[TiagoRocha]

Sorry for the late reply, but I wanted to have some free time to really dive into this.

Ok so one of my issues is not the degradation of the image, even though that's not desirable, of course. My issue is that Photoshop says that the image is at 100% when in fact it's not, at least, size wise. This only happens when the resolutions are different, yes, but if an image is 1000px by 500px and it's now at 2000px by 1000px, because it was resized to fit the canvas, then the Transform information should clearly say 200% and not 100%, otherwise I will never know how much the image was scalled up. Does it make sense?

In your example, the second to last image was in fact scalled down to fit the canvas, but I don't see a problem with that. It's just how Photoshop works, I guess and for me, it actually works better that way. But as you can see, the Transform window tells you that the image was scalled down to 33.33%, which is a good indication. The issue is when it's scalled up and you have no idea how much. That's when real degradation happens, not when you scale it down.

I was testing with some images with different resolutions and what I noticed (not sure if that makes any sense or not for those more into resolution than I am) is that if the resolution of the image being dragged into an opened document is LOWER than the opened document, it scales UP and doesn't tell you how much. The opposite also happens, but the other way around: an image with higher resolution will be scalled down and it shows you how much.

Here are the results. Feel free to comment. Maybe I'm missing something here, but when it says "100%" when it actually scalled it up/down, seems like a bug to me...

Original image:

300px by 300px, 300ppi

Imported images:

100px by 100px, 100ppi: scaled it UP to 300px and showed it as 100% in the Transform window

100px by 100px, 300ppi: kept the original size (100px) and it showed as 100% in the Transform window

300px by 300px, 100ppi: scaled it DOWN to 300px and showed it as 33.33% in the Transform window

600px by 600px, 300ppi: scaled it DOWN to 300px and showed it as 50% in the Transform window

600px by 600px, 600ppi: scaled it DOWN to 300px, but showed it as 100% in the Transform window

[D Fosse]

In a smart object, physical print size takes precedence over pixels.

This is somewhat counter-intuitive to anyone familiar with Photoshop, but part of the reason it was done this way is to ensure compatibility with vector applications like Ai, which only operate by physical dimensions.

In any case, the net effect is that a smart object is treated like a vector object that doesn't have any pixels, and you need to do the same. Yes, I know, it feels wrong, but it's the only way to make sense of it. Disregard pixel sizes, go by print sizes.

[JJMack]

The Percentage shown in the Smart Object Layers transform is related to the size of the smart object created.  Which may or may not be the image place or dragged.  The  normal value will be 100% if the  smart object created fits on canvas  also  if it will not fit on canvas it will still be 100% if you have un-checked resize during place in you Photoshop Preferences.  The Preferences resize during place has to do with scaling the created smart object if it does not fit on canvas.  Its Not about resizing your image.   This is where Place has a problem.  For some reason place will degrade an image if the file being placed in  Print resolution is different then the current  document print IMO it a Bug.   Print Pixel Size and number of pixels you have for an image are different things.  One is the size pixels will be printed and the other the quality of your image the numbers of quality Pixel the amount good of details you have for an image.  You can print the image any size you want by changing the Pixel Print size the Print PPI.   If you change the number of pixels you change the quality of the image either way the image quality degrades.   If Adobe increases the number of pixels details you don't have for the image have to be invented.  If Adobe decreases the number of  Pixels Adobe has to discard details  you have for your image. Its loose loose situation.  Also it not matter what size object is created. The user has to transform whatever size object is created to work the document composition.  If would be best if Adobe did not degrade images work like Copy Paste and Duplicate Layers and Dragging layer between document.  Preserve your quality image pixels.

[TiagoRocha]

Here's my issue with this:

If you create 2 300px by 300px images, regardless of their resolution, if you check their size, they are both 300px by 300px. That's their size inside Photoshop, and that's what Photoshop should focus on.

Now, if we create a Smart Object inside Photoshop by selecting various layers, the Smart Object won't be resized, so it's ok that if I try to resize that SO, it shows 100%

BUT...

When we drag an image (Place), if we think about the first example of the 2 images of 300px, just different resolutions, if my dragged image is smaller than the original document, then it shouldn't resize it (unless we tick that option) and it shouldn't say (after it scalled it up to fit the canvas) that it's 100%, because it's not, it scaled it up. 

That's my only issue with this, because by scaling it up, it degrades the quality of the image and then I won't be able to know when it's the optimal size. Like a "reset" button.

Because if we need to open the image, copy and paste it to avoid image degradation, then what's the point of even having the Place feature... right? 😉

When I say that it degrades the image, I mean that it scales it to a size that will be in a lower quality. I know that being a Smart Object, the image itself is "protected", but still, if it scalled up, it degraded the quality if I don't make any changes and, for example, print it like that.

[JJMack]

You wrote

"If you create 2 300px by 300px images, regardless of their resolution, if you check their size, they are both 300px by 300px. That's their size inside Photoshop, and that's what Photoshop should focus on."

The thing is that will not  be ture if you  use  Place to place those two images into a document. Photoshop will degrade one or both of the image. As my example showd. You do not seem to get it...

[JJMack]

You also wrote.

"Now, if we create a Smart Object inside Photoshop by selecting various layers, the Smart Object won't be resized, so it's ok that if I try to resize that SO, it shows 100%"

This is also not correct.  If you convert a layer to a smart object layer the layer' associated transform will show its size is 100%  width and 100% the height of the smart object that has been created from what was converted the smart object rendered pixels are set in concrete and can not be changed. The layer's pixels are not set in concrete. If you resize the smart object layer the smart object Pixels will not  change but the layers pixels will the layer's associated layer transform  width and height will show some percentage values that relate to the smart object width and height.  The layer pixels are a transformation of the smart object pixels..

I'm not going to address the other thing you wrote you need to understand how Photoshop work better.  Most users do not understand how Place works. IMO it is flawed. Adobe Preference Resize during place blows smoke in Photoshop users eyes so they can not see straight.  It has noting to do with resizing images.   That is where Place is flawed.  Place should not resize image but it does based on printer pixels size settings.  That a Bug.   If the Smart Object created by place is larger then Documents canvas size.  If resize during place is checked Photoshop will not resize the smart object created however, Photoshop will change the layers associated transforn to scale the smar object so the layer will fit on canvas.