Multilevel lists - cannot use tab to change levels - Robohelp 2022

[JenniR_12]

I am working with Multilevel lists in RH 2022.  I've imported a document from Word into RH.  I have created my list style and configured it for 4 levels (3, actually is all that is needed.)  I'm going through my imported file and I'm trying to apply my list style to the parts of the document that need the numbering.  Things are going great in some parts of the document and then in others, I am unable to use the Tab key to move the lines to the next level.  I select the lines that need the numbers applied to them, and select my list style that I created called KEESMultilevelList and then I press Tab because I need it to be a level 2 and nothing happens.  Earlier in this same document, tab works and allows me to move the lines in to the next level.  I've looked at the CSS source code and I have no idea what the hell I'm even looking at. 

In addition to this problem, I also have a strange issue where these random paragraph markers appear in my document after I apply the list style.   It doens't do it every time I apply my list style, but when it does happen, I can't select the paragraph or back space it out or delete it.  It just won't go away.  I've attached a screenshot of the topic as well as the original Word document and my CSS file.  You can see that under 6f, 8a and 9e there is a paragraph mark and I can't get rid of it.  Initially I thought it was something to do with  my level 2 but then I noticed it happened afte a level 1 as well.  I need to remove those empty paragraphs.  Things I've tried is to delete the lines in the level that I was trying to apply when the paragraph appeared and reapply the list style - it just puts it right back in.  I've tried the clear formatting in RH.  I also went back to the Word file and copied the text and pasted into Notepad and then copied again and pasted into my RH Topic and it does the same thing.  I've also tried the None list button on the toolbar at the top of RH.  

So, my 2 questions are

1)   Why can't I use the Tab key in certain spots to go to the next level of my list?

2)  How can I remove these empty paragraphs that are being inserted when applying my list style (and     how can I avoid the empty paragraphs from appearing or can I)?

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

I would suspect that the Word import brought in a bunch of cruft into your RH topics - have a look in the HTML source view at a spot where it's misbehaving.
Generally, you want to have your import source doc as clean as possible to make the mapping to RH's styles work. That other option of running the Word content through Notepad first will work if you paste into a fresh topic & then apply your RH styles to it.

[JenniR_12]

Yes, I agree with the coming from Word to RH could potentially be bringing in unwanted "crud".  The Word documents are pretty clean.  I'm the only one that has worked on them and I created the styles in Word.  However, in the spirit of just getting on with life, I tried the Notepad thing prior to posting here but that didn't fix the issue with the empty paragraphs appearing or the tab not working in promoting text to the next level.  I also am running into the fact that when I go from Notepad to RH, none of the hard returns come over from notepad.  So, I apply 1 Heading style to the top line and the entire document changes to heading 1 because it thinks the entire document is 1 giant paragraph.  So I have to go in and reinsert every hard return.  That can't be right??   It seems like any which way I turn, I'm hitting a brick wall.  I've only got about 1000 more of these pages to bring in.......I thought I had cleared all the RH hurdles whenI figured out how to create my list style in RH since the numbering styles I had setup in Word, just don't really transfer over, I guess.  But, alas, I'm still not in the clear.  One giant brick wall after another.  I guess my thoughts are why have the option to import from Word if it causes so many problems? I know that is the main reason my company purchased the software (which was before I arrived).  It just seems like it's a big deal to the consumer yet it doesn't really work for much.  Anyway, if anyone has any additional thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Additionally, I looked at my CSS source code as I mentioned in the post, at the spot where the odd things are happening and have even went so far as to start removing things that I think could be the problem, but when I removed those things, I was left with an error message so I put those things back and the error went away.  First time I looked at CSS was 2 weeks ago.  I'm not there yet, I suppose.

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@Jeff_Coatsworth wrote:

I would suspect that the Word import brought in a bunch of cruft into your RH topics - have a look in the HTML source view at a spot where it's misbehaving.
Generally, you want to have your import source doc as clean as possible to make the mapping to RH's styles work. That other option of running the Word content through Notepad first will work if you paste into a fresh topic & then apply your RH styles to it.

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@Jeff_Coatsworth wrote:

I would suspect that the Word import brought in a bunch of cruft into your RH topics - have a look in the HTML source view at a spot where it's misbehaving.
Generally, you want to have your import source doc as clean as possible to make the mapping to RH's styles work. That other option of running the Word content through Notepad first will work if you paste into a fresh topic & then apply your RH styles to it.

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[Jeff_Coatsworth]

Unfortunately, Word docs are usually never clean - there's usually layers of formatting involved in any style.
You mention looking at the CSS - that's just the instructions that tell how to show the underlying HTML. What you want to see is clean HTML - nice <ol> </ol> list pairs, <li> </li> list elements, <p> </p> paragraphs, etc. 
When you imported, did you follow Peter's site on managing the import (https://www.grainge.org/RoboHelp_Tour/rh2022/authoring/importing_linking.htm)? 

[JenniR_12]

Yes, I did.  He and I actually emailed back and forth regarding the imports.  As far as the HTML, I'm doing good to even realize what's going on in the CSS.   I'll have to keep trying.  Surely I'm not the only one that has come across these issues.  

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

Is this a one-off project (i.e. you're migrating the Word content into RH and will continue to author in RH going forward?) OR is this something that's going to be repeated with further edits to the Word content? What's the ultimate output going to be? HTML5? PDFs?

[JenniR_12]

Once the files are moved to RH, we will no longer be using the Word files or updating them.  One time move over to RH and then maintain and update in RH.  Output will be HTML5.

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

So, just one-time pain then. No real way to get around that - you'e converting diesel into gasoline here as Rick used to say. Either way (import direct or copy/paste unformatted text) you're going to blow a lot of time cleaning things up. 

[JenniR_12]

Do you have any idea as to why when I copy from Word to Notepad and then from Notepad to RH,  it comes over as one giant parapgraph and loses all of my hard returns?  I would just move on with that method to just get it done, but coming from Notepad into RH doesn't seem to be the answer.  I apply my heading 1 style to the top line and everything turns into heading 1 bc it's one large paragraph.

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

I think the only time I've seen that happen is when they aren't really hard returns in the Word doc - just Shift-Enters or something "line-feedy" like that. Have you tried to see what you'd get if you did a Save As in the Word doc to just plain text (.txt)? 

[JenniR_12]

So, I figured out that I had the word wrap turned on in Notepad and once I turned it off, the hard returns carried over from Word to Notepad and then from Notepad to RH.  I finally went in and used RH's numbering and bullet buttons on the toolbar at the top and then was able to get my numbered lists and bulleted list to work.  The only struggle I'm having at this time is getting the 2nd LINE (not level) of each level to wrap correctly.  I need 2nd lines to wrap and start right under where the text on line 1 starts.  For example:

     1.     ldkfjdksafj afklsjfaksdfj adsfkdfjdksfjad fjkldsfjksadfjaksdfjdskfjsadkfasdlkfdsklfjsdkfjasdkfjdslksdkfll  ldkf l                jknlkj lsadkflsadkfj dflksdfj;asldkfj;lasdf jasdkfjasdklfjadlksfj;akldsfj dsakjfasd.

Right now, the only thing that happens is that line 2 wraps back to the left margin.  I need line 2 and subsequent lines to wrap at 1" from the left margin.  I have scoured the internet looking for the field in RH that controls the 2nd line indents.  Why would that be so difficult to find?  I think it should be a very simple question for someone to answer.  Where in this MESS is the magic setting?  1" 2nd line word wrap.  That's the next thing I will waste an entire day trying to figure out. 

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

Maybe this would help? https://eastmanreference.com/html-and-css-text-wrap-indent-tutorial - no this one is better - https://blog.hubspot.com/website/how-to-indent-css - it talks more about lists

[JenniR_12]

Thanks, Jeff.  I was hoping that I could just edit the style using the style editor (I believe is what it's called) and make the change without having to go into the code and changing.  For me, it's like trying to proofread a book written in Spanish (which I don't speak).   It's just one giant sea of "stuff".  I'm getting better with it, but I don't have the time to learn it all up front.  It would just be nice to click a button somewhere or a dropdown or something and specificy 1".  I just can't figure out why it's not there?  I would think that would be important for not just me , but many others.  I must have 1000 numbered and bulleted lists that I'm trying to fix and I'm beyond aggrevated.  I used to be  in a good mood  😉   Now I'm just overly annoyed all the time.  (i'm being a little dramatic - it's been a long week)   Thanks for all of your suggestions and help.  I really appreciateit.  I'm looking through the link you sent me now to try to find my needle in the haystack!!

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

I bet the answer is "maybe" - my problem is that I haven't got the time yet to get the latest RH2022 and learn the New UI inside out & backwards like Peter has. I'm still stuck using RH11 for one of the products I write about - and even then I don't do a lot of formatting within RH to make the output look "nice" - that's what the CSS is for.

[Amebr]

Post the code related to your lists, and also a snippet of the html code of your list (just a couple of numbers).

Normally you set padding-left on the li tag to set the amount of space between the number and the text, but given you say it wraps right back to the margin, there's something else going on.

[Amebr]

I think the blank paragraphs are normal and mark where a nested list ends. They won't show up in the output.

As for not being able to nest a list, it usually means that the text isn't a list, or is a complete list rather than part of a list. The screenshot is a bit small, but the selection of text you selected seems to be inside a div, so you might be trying to indent the div, rather than the list itself. Or perhaps you have selected a complete list, so you won't be able to nest that until you include it as part of the preceding or following lists.

[JenniR_12]

Thanks, Amebr.  You were right about the blank paragraphs.  You can't tell in the output.  So, now the only problem I'm having at this particular time is the tab button not working to move level one to level 2.  Like I said, it works in some places, but not all the time.  Something obviously is in those lines that is causing a problem.  I'll reread the suggestions on this post and see if I can figure anything out.  Thank you.

[Peter Grainge]

Try the tip I gave you before. Copy from Word and use Shift V into RoboHelp. You don't need to use a text editor. 

________________________________________________________
My site www.grainge.org includes many free Authoring and RoboHelp resources that may be of help.

[JenniR_12]

Hi Peter.  I will try the Shift V (that would make things a little faster).  I must have missed that suggestion although, I've referred back to your emails about 100 times since I received them trying to see if I missed something (that seems to be going well, since I obviously missed the Shift V suggestion)   🙂 

I'm going to go ahead and close this post out, because with Jeff's article he sent to me, I think I should be able to figure out how to set a 1" 2nd line indent. Thank you to all that responded.  It's very much appreciated.

[Peter Grainge]

Does the list look right in the CSS editor?

• If it does then something is in the text causing the issue.
• If it does not, that's where to look. Are you remembering to switch between numbering and text as you make changes? 

________________________________________________________
My site www.grainge.org includes many free Authoring and RoboHelp resources that may be of help.

[JenniR_12]

Hi.  Yes, line 1 looks good in the CSS editor, although it doesn't show me what the 2nd line of a list item will look like? There is no way to see a preview of what a multi-line list item would look like on the 2nd line in the CSS Editor (from what I am seeing.....although, I could def. be wrong).  In theory I love the CSS Editor, but I have had big problems with it.  Sometimes I make a change and absolutley nothing happens.  Sometimes I make a change and the numbers will move all the way over on top of the text. It hasn't clicked with me yet.  I love the idea of being able to preview what I'm doing when I'm making the changes and settng up my styles, but for me, it hasn't helped me bc it's always doingsomething completely different than what I am expecting.  (I totally get it's the pilot and not the plane.  In other words, if I was changing the correct "thing", I would get the expected results in the preview).  The only things I have been changing are font size, line height, top and bottom margin, left margin and left padding.  I haven't really touched anything besides those fields in the CSS editor.     Here is what I've done......I imported Word files and the styles I used in Word.  You and everyone else were right in that, it seemed to just mess things up vs helping in any way.  So, I started by clearing formatting on  my topics once they were imported by selecting all and going to Edit/Clear Formatting in RH.  Then, I selected the lines that needed to have bullets or numbers and I used the bullet OR the number button on the toolbar at the top of RH to change those lines to a bulleted list or a numbered list.  I noted that it was either the decimal or the disc style that was applied when using those buttons,  so I went in and edited the decimal style and the disc style for what I am trying to produce.  I need numbers to start in .5" from left margin and then .5" space (or a little less) between bullet/number and start of text and then I need subsequent lines to wrap back directly under the start of the 1st line and NOT the left margin.  Here are the settings I have been using (which work great for line 1 - - but 2nd line goes back to margin).  

Font Size - 18 px

Line Height - 24 px

Top and Bottom Margin - 18 px

Left Margin - 48 px

Left Padding - 40 px (just because it looked better than 48 px.)  It is my understand that the padding deals with the amount of space between the bullet/number and the text.  

[Amebr]

Setting padding-left on the ol.Decimal style adds padding to the left of the number.

To set extra space between the number and the text, you need to select the li style and add padding-left there.

[JenniR_12]

Ok.  Are you talking about how to get my 2nd line indent?  Add a padding left to the <ol> or <ul> style?  I think I get it.  Are all of these settings to be thought of in "relationship" to the left margin?  So, in other words, if I want my number to start 48 px (.5") in from my left margin, which in this case, I have my left margin set to 48px in the decimal styleI.  And then I want my text to start 48 px in from the number (or another .5"), but that would actually mean it's 96 px  from left margin (or 1") for my text setting, right?  And then second line indent would be a padding left of 96 px  (1")??  

If you could answer 1 more thing for me, make ,me understand what the decimal style controls and what the <li> style controls?   I have taught paragraph numbering in Word for the last 20 years.  And so I always say that the Style controls the text and the bullet or number button on the toolbar and the modifications we make inside that button - only controls what the NUMBER or BULLET will look like.  So we have to make our modifications in 2 places if we want a proper outline or bulleted or numbered list.  One place is the style and the other is the bullet and then we link the 2 together so when we apply the paragraph style, since it's linked to the bullet style, it all looks like we want it to look.  I assume that is somehow what RH does with the Decimal or Disc style and and the <ul> and <ol>.    I hope that all makes sense.  I'm just trying to understand what is talking to what and working with what?  What do I modify to get the numbers to look right and be positioned correctly and what do I modify to get the text to look right and to be positioned correctly?  Amd, then I have seen it throw an alphanumeric style in the mix and I'm not sure where that comes from.  I clicked the multilevel button, I think, and that might be where I saw the alphnumeric style come into play.  I can't remember.........

Thank you so much.

[Jeff_Coatsworth]

You might want to have a look at https://www.w3schools.com/css/css_list.asp to get familiar with how CSS & HTML work with lists.

[Amebr]

I'm going to give you an answer that as print person you're going to hate. 🙂 In HTML, it depends. It depends on where the element is in the page, what its parent elements are and what properties are set on various elements on the page.

Having said that, typically things relate to their container element, so an li container will start where the margin and padding for the parent  (ol or ul) container finishes. To complicate matters, lists behave a little strangely and also have "hidden" settings that define various values and these values vary depending on the browser.

Set the margin on the ol or ul so that the number lines up where you want. Then on the li set the padding-left to set the space between the number and the text. (Oh and in RH 2019 there's a setting in the ol and ul  called "Prefix Size". If that exists in RH2022, you should be able to set that value, instead of defining the padding-left on the li. But I don't have RH2022 at the moment to check.)

Regarding lists, the list-style-type is set on the ol or ul to tell the list what sort of numbering or bullet to use. There are a whole bunch of keywords you can use such as decimal (1.), lower-alpha (a.), upper-roman (I.),  circle(◦), square (▫), disc (•). (Hopefuly the symbols work, but if not, you can just try it for yourself to see what they look like.). I'd typically set the overall style of the list here, such as font-size and colour.

The li holds the text. You shouldn't need to set much on this. line-height would be one thing to set if you need it. You might also need to reset some of the font settings, depending on other things you've done in your stylesheet. As a rule of thumb, don't set anything for this unless your lists IN THE OUTPUT look wrong.