OpenGL vs. DirectX --> Broken?

[bernhardrieder]

I can't see any difference when siwtching my project settings from OpenGL to DirectX when outputting a Normal Map.

I think, this is a bug and should be fixed. 

I compared two Normal Map Exports. One is Exported with DirectX and one is Exported with OpenGL.
The Normal Maps are 100% identical.
It only exports with DirectX and OpenGL doesn't seem to work.

I was running a test and checked the map inside a game engine, that's using OpenGL.
And yes, the shadows are upside down, shows that the export for OpenGL ist not working even when the project is setup with OpenGL.

Please can you check and let me know if you can reproduce that issue?

DirectX Export

OpenGL Export:

[leighv123]

I am creating materials and exporting maps directly from Sampler.

Changing the Normal format in Preferences from DirectX to OpenGL is not working for me.  The normal format preference now has no impact on the 2D view, Image Import Layer or on Export (this was ALL working just fine in V4.1).

To workaround this issue I added an Invert filter and applied it to the Normal channel... so far I have found the workflow in V4.1.2 Cannoli to be MUCH quicker. It also felt as though I had a lot more control than what I do now.

As another test I also opened a project which I created in the previous version and when exporting the PNG maps the Base Color map shifted greatly incolor and the Roughness map had changed significantly in tone.

[bernhardrieder]

by the way, please find attached the source image I am using with "Image to Material".
If you use the same image, you should be able to reproduce that issue.

[leighv123]

I came across this same issue also and posted about it yesterday... https://community.adobe.com/t5/substance-3d-sampler-bugs/normal-format-in-preferences-broken-v4-2-1-...

Hopefully they will be able to give us an update with it soon! 

[Cyril Dellenbach]

Hi @leighv123, Hello @bernhardrieder,

I've merged your two posts together considering this is the same topic.

Thanks a lot for your report, following your messages, we're now investigating on this issue that very well seems to be a bug.

I'll try to keep you updated on the subject.

Best regards,

[Cyril Dellenbach]

Hi again everyone,

After discussion with the team, the bug is that the "Default" preset doesn't use the value defined in the project preferences window, and always export in DirectX.

For the information, the preset normal format always override the project settings.

e.g. Blender: OpenGL, Unreal: DirectX, etc.

but the "Default" preset should obviously take in consideration the project settings.

Therefore, as long as the issue isn't solved (which shouldn't take too long), you can export the normal map in OpenGL, you'll only need to switch the preset.

Best regards,

[leighv123]

Hi Cyril,

I was able to export as OpenGL using a custom preset I had made. However when working on materials the issue was that the 2D View was showing Normal as DirectX.  

Can you please confirm that the fix they are working on will reflect the correct Normal in the 2D View as well.

Thanks.

[bernhardrieder]

And how do you switch the preset?

any step-by-step guide?

[bernhardrieder]

I agree with @leighv123 . I was just running another test, and it seems the Viewport doesn't consider OpenGL from the project settings. That should be fixed.

It also looks like, that "recomputing" normals is also wrong in the calculation.

Please, if possible .. let's put the Normal Map issue to the highest priority. It's a major feature that impacts the entire workflow. Curently, you can't trust what you see. Adn you never now if all normal map layers are computed the correct way, which results into a non-usable texture map.

appreciate all your efforts and I hope our contribution helps to make this product better.
cheers

[bernhardrieder]

and again, I was just running another test, in which a Material comes on top of another Layer. 
And when dealing with Mutiple Layers or Materials, the Normal Map information get's computed wrong.

This makes the product un-useable, because when you mix different materials, you'll never get the correct normal map output. Even so flipping the Normals at the very end doesn't do the trick anymore, because I would need to "flip" the normal already inside one of the materials, before blending.

That's a major hit, because usually I use multiple layers and materials stacked on top of each other, to add grass, moss, dirt or mud, etc.

[bernhardrieder]

Best would be to simple add a Layer or Node inside Sampler that always allows you to "Flip" the Normals.
For example:
--> Normal Node to switch to OpenGL
--> Normal Node to switch to DirectX
--> Normal Node to Flip Normals

[bernhardrieder]

and I found another issue:
when re-computing the Normal Map, it adds a Seam. Looks like, the re-computing has a pixel issue with the edges. Something in the code doesn't work correct.

[Cyril Dellenbach]

Hi,

To answer you @leighv123, the Normal map will always be in DirectX format inside Sampler (considering this is the format the software uses), but the conversion is made on export. This change has been done recently, because Substance Sampler doesn't support OpenGL anymore. Therefore no, this won't change in the future.

Recomputing normal is a feature to use when you have access to a precise physical size of the material, wrong values can create the kind of artifacts you're facing. In most cases, I'd advise to avoid using this feature when it isn't needed.

Best regards,

[bernhardrieder]

if everything inside Sampler is DirectX, especially the Editor and the visual preview, why do we have then within the project settings OpenGL? It's very confusing. 

Then I would suggest, let's keep everything in DirectX, and then let's just add an Export Feature, in which you can select if you want to export the Normal Map in DirectX or OpenGL.

Wouldn't that be much easier?

[leighv123]

Cyril,

Thanks for your response.

When did Sampler stop OpenGL support?  I was unable to find that information anywhere in the release notes.

Also the documentation still states that the normal format preference impacts the 2D View, Image Import Layer and Export (see attached images).

If this is not the case is there any point in having the option to set Normal format in Preferences/Project setting?

Thank.

[Cyril Dellenbach]

Thanks for your responses.

To answer you @leighv123, I'm not exactely sure when this change occured (I could investigate if you want), and the Normal format under the Preferences sets up which format the Default export preset will (should) use, in addition to which format an imported normal map will take.

As for the documentation issue, I've notified the person in charge, so thanks for the report.

As @bernhardrieder mentioned, one thing is for sure (and this thread highlight it), the current state of the Normal format isn't intuitive, and following these messages, we now have discussions on the subject.

I'll try to keep you updated.

[bernhardrieder]

@Cyril Dellenbach yes, I agree. And I am glad I could trigger this discussion. This is very important, since a lot of different materials and layers can be mixed. Also, often times confusing when using Substance Source Materials. Are they all built with DirectX, and then merging with an OpenGL Project? etc. etc. also, there is the conversion from Height maps to normal maps, might be also considered, I use this quite often. thanks a bunch and I hope my bug-bashing sessions are useful for the team. cheers

[PixelFun]

So this post is from last year. I tested the latest Sampler, and also the Beta. 

OpenGL Still doesn't work.

Who ever is in charge of this product, could they please just add a simple Layer Node that will allow you to export the Normal Map in DirectX or OpenGL? That this simple fix is still not done? Brruhh... that hurts.

[leighv123]

I hear you PixelFun!

Adobe... a core fundamental element of 3D texturing software is to be able to output maps correctly... without getting that right as your primary foundation... the entire program is, well... kinda pointless unless you are only concerned about DirectX!
PLEASE, please fix this ASAP.

After a few tests on Version 4.3.3 - Empanada, running Windows 10.  Below were the results.

1. Changing the Project Normal format option (in Edit/Preferences), from DirectX does NOTHING. Adobe already knows this and were meant to remove the option from the menu so as not to continue to cause confusion. I was informed that exported Normal maps were to be determined by choosing the appropriate Export Preset (in Export/Export As/Material Settings/Preset dropdown).

2. Changing the Export Preset annd exporting as PNG DOES change the Normal map format to OpenGL (I tried Blender, Lens Studio, Spark AR and Unity). However... I was not able to export 16bit PNG Normals. The only way to get a Normal map in 16bit was to either use the Default Export preset... which is locked to DirectX... or to use my own custom preset which I set up in Substance Designer (which is what I have been doing for the last 6 months because Adobe still have not fixed the issue).

PixelFun, if you want I am happy to share the preset I made (although I cannot remember how I made it exactly ... I made it out of neccessity and frustration and works for my current needs. Anyway, hit me up if you want to try it).

Adobe... please throw some resources at this issue to get it solved once and for all. This isn't the 1990s when you had the only software worth using. Lots of other options for people now... and the ones I have trialled make me start to wonder why I still have not 1... but 2 Adobe subscriptions (only because Adobe offers zero plans that incorporate Substance into their other products).