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pziecina
Legend
March 10, 2017

The elements of typographic style, has been around for years, (i even have the book). In my opinion one should read the book as it covers much more than both sites posted.

Typography on the web has much more to offer, now than it did just a few years ago. As does how one lays out the text, simple 'boxes' of text are the norm still, but do not have to be, and flowing text around a shape is now so simple, that I am amazed at how few web designers even know about it.

The problem with anything on the web, is as Nancy says, 'the end user'. We can create the best typographical experiance there is, (if you can do it in inDesign, you can do it using css on the web) but everything can be undone by the end user.

Then of course, there is the time it takes to create such well structured pages, and the lack of knowledge of many who call themselves, 'wed designers' or 'developers'.

Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 10, 2017

I bring you Google Font Effects (Beta) .  NOTE: You need a webkit browser (Chrome or Safari) to see most of these:

Get Started with the Google Fonts API  |  Google Fonts  |  Google Developers

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 16, 2017

Thanks, Nancy. These "Google Font Effects" could be interesting is used aesthetically or could just be a headache if abused.

VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 10, 2017

It seems that Barbr was the only one who looked at those sites closely. They are not about splashing X number of fonts on your website but rather the art and science of typography as applied to the web:

"Typography is the art and technique of arranging type to make written language legible, readable, and appealing when displayed. The arrangement of type involves selecting typefaces, point sizes, line lengths, line-spacing, and letter-spacing, and adjusting the space between pairs of letters (kerning). more at Typography - Wikipedia

I have always had an attraction to typography and selection of fonts but that was heighten after I read this article in the NY Times about how people are subtly affected by which font is used in a text. That using certain fonts will make the same text more accepted than if other fonts are used. And that academic papers using certain fonts get higher scores than other fonts. Take away -- if you want to appear credible and authoritative do not use sans-sarif fonts for body text. But there is a lot more to it than that and the two websites I posted links to cover these points in more detail for those who want to create websites that stand out from the crowd but in a way that is almost imperceptible but very effective – by applying good typography.

VL Branko

Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 10, 2017

<Take away -- if you want to appear credible and authoritative do not use sans-sarif fonts for body text.>

That statement is rooted in past century print conventions; not the modern digital age.  While serif might work well in print,  usability studies show that sans-serif fonts are much cleaner & easier to read on screen.   If you use an Android device, I'm guessing that your web experience is all in Droid Sans.

Droid Sans Mono Bold

Web designers are at the mercy of the end user's web devices and settings.   We can build great stylesheets with terrific typography but that doesn't mean the end user sees it that way.

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 16, 2017

Nancy O wrote:

"That statement is rooted in past century print conventions; not the modern digital age.  While serif might work well in print,  usability studies show that sans-serif fonts are much cleaner & easier to read on screen.  If you use an Android device, I'm guessing that your web experience is all in Droid Sans."

When I hear someone say "studies have shown" in my mind (and sometimes popping out of my mouth) comes the question: "whose studies?"

"Not the modern digital age," as you are fond of saying, things move fast in web design and that we need to keep up so that also applies to typography. The modern digital age refers to -- after HD screens. Jakob Nielsen had this to say with the advent of HD screens (emphasis in red added):

"The old usability guideline for online typography was simple: stick to sans-serif typefaces. Because computer screens were too lousy to render serifs properly, attempting serif type at body-text sizes resulted in blurry letter shapes. ...

The old guideline was dictated by the poor screens on all mainstream computers. Now that we have high-quality screens, it's time to change the guideline.

In general, usability guidelines remain unchanged decade after decade because they're determined by human characteristics. However, every so often, some guidelines change due to the influence of technology or a change in user habits. For example, 10% of the original web usability guidelines from the 1990s have now changed because of technology improvements. Count this article as changing one more of those old guidelines.

Unfortunately, the new guideline is not as clear-cut as the old one. Legibility research is inconclusive as to whether serif fonts are truly better than sans serif.

Almost all mainstream printed newspapers, magazines, and books use serif type, and thus people are more accustomed to reading long texts in this style. However, given the research data, the difference in reading speed between serif and sans serif is apparently quite small. Thus, there's no strong usability guideline in favor of using one or the other, so you can make the choice based on other considerations — such as branding or the mood communicated by a particular typographical style." Jakob Nielsen - Serif vs. Sans-Serif Fonts for HD Screens

Here is a scholarly article (in serif font ) by another usability consultant Alex Poole : Which Are More Legible: Serif or Sans Serif Typefaces?

From the conclusion:

"What initially seemed a neat dichotomous question of serif versus sans serif has resulted in a body of research consisting of weak claims and counter-claims, and study after study with findings of “no difference”. ...

"Finally, we should accept that most reasonably designed typefaces in mainstream use will be equally legible, and that it makes much more sense to argue in favour of serif or sans serif typefaces on aesthetic grounds than on the question of legibility."

Here is another article: Serif vs. Sans Serif Fonts: Is One Really Better Than the Other? It debunks the myths that serif is for print and sans serif for digital.

One user at https://www.reddit.com/r/userexperience/comments/2tvm2i/is_serif_more_readable_than_sans_serif_on_mobile/  made the following comment containing a list of major sites (as of 2015) using both font types:

I don't think there's a big difference, but just to see I did a little experiment. Here are major websites who publish lots of articles.

Serif train: New York Times, The Guardian, Huffington Post, The Daily Beast, Reuters, NPR, New York Post, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, TIME, Bloomberg Businessweek, Newsweek, Forbes, Washington Post, Politico, LA Times, The Boston Globe, Wired

Sans serif boat: BBC, NBC, Vox, Medium, Buzzfeed, Fox, ABC, CNN, Mashable, Us Weekly, The Onion, People, USA Today, Telegraph, NY Daily News, Fast Company

I think both serif and sans serif fonts can be readable if you pick a nice one. Leading, tracking, kerning, font weight, contrast, hierarchy, and minding characters per line are also important factors in readability. If you're still font curious and want help making better font choices read Stop Stealing Sheep and Find Out How Type Works.

So the main point that both Jacob and Alex make is that now with the improvement of technology there are no grounds for using the "better legibility" argument for sans serif in digital medium. That is is now a myth. But rather the choice is now stylistic, based upon the designer's subjective aesthetic sensibilities. My personal taste is san serif or flared serif for titles and headings (or "flared" sans like Trajan sans pro) with a serif body font. Your taste may differ. De gustibus non est disputandum -- In matters of taste, there can be no disputes.

Nancy wrote: "Web designers are at the mercy of the end user's web devices and settings.   We can build great stylesheets with terrific typography but that doesn't mean the end user sees it that way."

But at least when it comes to what type face they see I can control that using "@font-face"

Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 9, 2017

With the explosion of Web Fonts now available from Google, Typekit, Edge and others, we're not limited to the dreary Win/Mac (web safe) font stacks anymore.  But too much of a good thing can backfire and lead to abuses.   When I see more than 3-4 web fonts on a page, it's distracting and pages tend to load much slower.   I think Web Fonts are great but they should be used sparingly. 

My biggest other complaint lately -- and this is not limited to the web, it effects all UIs -- fonts are too small and/or lack sufficient contrast to be comfortably viewed on screen.    Who decided that gray text on a gray background was a good idea?

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 10, 2017

Nancy O said: "My biggest other complaint lately -- and this is not limited to the web, it effects all UIs -- fonts are too small and/or lack sufficient contrast to be comfortably viewed on screen.    Who decided that gray text on a gray background was a good idea?"

Even on a white back ground gray text is hard to read. It lacks contrast, bad typography. The "designer" forgot that the page was meant to be read and not stared as an art object. Good typography should be transparent and not get in the way of reading the page.

Barb Binder
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 9, 2017

Thanks for sharing! I train a lot of new InDesign/FrameMaker users with no background in the principles of setting type or designing pages. I'll add the first one to my list of resources.

~Barb at Rocky Mountain Training
VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 9, 2017

Hello Babr

Since it is meant for web typography I don't know how much it would help for InDesign which is for books and hardcopy. Of course, the web typography is derived from hard copy so there is some common ground.

Ussnorway7605025
Legend
March 9, 2017

its ok as a guide to get you started on the web but it is subjective and I wouldn't call it current

VL Branko
VL BrankoAuthor
Inspiring
March 9, 2017

And what would you consider objective and current?