Hebrew fonts?

[_Tom_Fussy_]

I am in N. America trying to purchase a Hebrew font for use in creating some bilingual documentation for a product my company will sell. We are trying, if possible, to use a Hebrew typeface that would be considered "compatible" with Frutiger. Problem is, I am not finding any Hebrew fonts at all on Adobe's website as is presented to me in N. America. Does Adobe have any Hebrew fonts? How can I access and purchase them?

[_therebbe_]

How do you type nekudot in Word 2007 - Vista?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

The issue is really not Word, but the keyboard driver for Hebrew included with Windows and Vista. Word has been 'smart' or compatible with typing nikkud since Word 2000.

I use a Mac which is little more intutive than Windows or Vista, like doing most things. On Windows or Vista, I think you simply type in your Hebrew text after choosing a TrueType or OpenType with Unicode Hebrew with Nikkud font, and the Hebrew keyboard .dll driver. Then, you go back to add the nikkud, bt pressing down the capslock key, and typing different number keys from the top level of your keyboard. Really stupid. Likely, a non-Hebrew programmer created this; as they say, "Goyishe kupp."

If you have a non-Unicode Hebrew font, it won't work, and most commercial Hebrew fonts are non-Unicode. :)

If that wasn't bad enough, most Windows and Vista computers are noy enabled for Hzebrew. :)

If this is the case, call GoHebrew or www.GoHebrew.com.

[_Raphael_Freeman_]

Firstly every copy of Windows 2000, XP and Vista is fully enabled for Hebrew whether you buy it in Israel, America or China. You simply have to tell the computer that. Not only that, but once you switch on the Hebrew support from the control panel, then Word (at least the recent versions) will automatically have full right-to-left Hebrew support (try that on the Mac!)

Vis-a-vis the keyboard, typing nikud with the default Hebrew keyboard is a pain. You have to type the letter, then hit CAPS LOCK, then SHIFT-number key. This is indeed silly. There are 2 sensible options. 1) simply create a new keyboard using Microsoft's free keyboard utility. The Vista utility is easier. I have made a teamey mikra keyboard too in this way (Windows supports that too). You are welcome to my keyboard if you like, just e-mail me offline to raphael at korenpub dot com. Incidentally this will work with non-opentype fonts as well. All opentype fonts will give you is correct positioning of the nikud under the letter in software such as InDesign ME, but has nothing to do with the typing of the Hebrew.

Another good solution is to buy a program such as DavkaWriter (www.davka.com) and copy and paste the text into InDesign. This is particularly useful if you have teamey mikra to do.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I guess what Mr. Freeman refers to as "enabling" and I is really the same thing.

Its a set of simple steps you must do to make Windows or Vista function in Hebrew. Its siumple, but not as intuitive as on the Mac, which requires a single click of a box. I really don't know why Windows or Vista is not so easy as this on or off precedure.

Raphael, I thought I needed to paste DavkaWriter text first to Word and afterwards to InDesign. You are saying to just skip the Word stage. Right?

Can I export DavkaWrite text, and then paste it into InDesign or even import it?

[_Raphael_Freeman_]

Yes, with the latest version of DavkaWriter you can cut and paste directly into InDesign including teamey mikra! You don't need Word.

In terms of intuitivity, I think that both Windows and the Mac have developed so much that I'm not sure you can say that any more. Case in point, I used to work on the Mac from OS6 to OS9, I then migrated to PC. I'm now using Vista on the PC. We have a couple of Macs in the office running OSX and everytime I have to use it I curse. Why? coz I'm no longer use to it and do the most simple of operations like moving files or accessing things on the network (something that I always found easier on the Mac) I now find much much harder simply because I don't know it any more.

Doing things on Vista is incredibly intuitive for me, but that's because I've been on Windows for years now and I think that's the main point. If you want Hebrew on Vista (or Chinese) it's the same easy procedure, hit the Windows key, type control panel, type language, select Change keyboards or other input methods, and I'm the right place along with a help dialogue the whole way through.

Don't get me wrong, the Mac is great, but try doing Hebrew in Word on the Mac and you are stuck, since Word on the Mac (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't support full Hebrew which for typesetters like myself who use Word for preparing text before typesetting in InDesign CS 3 ME, is a bit of a problem. And of course great programs like DavkaWriter don't work on the Mac either.

So for us guys typesetting in Hebrew, whereas once upon a time, the Mac was supreme with Hebrew versions (of sorts) of PageMaker, Quark, and Freehand (not to mention Rav Daf), with NisusWriter and Kesherim. Today, however, your best platform for Hebrew is of course Windows mainly because of the support software around Adobe ME products which are biplatform (ie Word, DavkaWriter etc).

[_Zeev_Kainan_]

Dear Mr. Freeman,

I will be very grateful if you could explain how to work with trop (taamei haMikra) on Hebrew text with InDesign for Mac.

My text is in Davka Writer 5 [on a PC Win XP system, Hebrew] (but I can copy it to Word XP), but my grapic designer does not manage to work with it prperly with InDesigen [Mac].

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Zeev
(You can write back also directly to zkainan at gmail dot com)

[BobLevine]

Does your designer have the ME version of InDesign? If not, there's not
a lot you can do with LTR languages.

Bob

[raphaelfreeman]

He has ME. The problem is that he doesnt have opentype Hebrew fonts with trop. There arent very many of these.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

The question is, if I understand it correctly, is how to enter new text of Biblical Hebrew material, i.e. Hebrew words words, vowels, accents, and cantorial marks, also known as taamei mikra or taamim, or to import such material into an InDesign ME (Middle East) program for bi-directional text.

Two things are needed. An input system, and a compatible Hebrew OpenType font with Unicode characters for taamim with also OpenType programming information for automatic alignment of the vowels, accents and taamim. Without the latter OT programming, the presence of the Unicode characters is useless.

As Raphael mentioned, correctly made OT Biblical fonts are rare.

Call FontWorld at 718-686-1099 or visit at www.fontworld.com to acquire high quality professional OT Biblical Hebrew fonts.

[raphaelfreeman]

of course you can manually move the teamim using the diacritic positioning which is definately doable for a short (and I repeat short) amount of text.

I have a solution whereby I store a set of search and replaces (the equivalent of a kerning table in Tag language, but of course isnt kerning at all since its diacritic positioning). Its slow, painful but works.

I have done it for Fontbits NewHadasaS and Livorna. So technically speaking you dont actually need OT programming at all.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Do friends call you: "Raffy"?

As you correctly point out, one can noodge, or move slightly individual graphic elements, like the vowel points (nikkud), accents, and taamim (trop - cantoral marks) under a Hebrew letter, in InDesign ME, using kerning tools provided in InDesign.

This is a tedious process, requiring much patience and a fine eye for detail. It borders between fine typography, addiction to perfection, and obsession - maybe even madness! Because who really cares anyway? Most people don't notice it. And only another type specialist can appreciate it - and he or she is so picky, they'll just complain anyway, right Rephael?

Your distinction between kerning and diacritic positioning in Tag fascinates me from a theorectic point of view, as you qualify it by warning its painfully slow (to make or to display). Please elaborate.

Does Harbs know this well, or his talent ismore on the programming side?

[raphaelfreeman]

No, my friends dont call me Raffy. But feel free to call me Raphael.

Your argument that nobody notices is like saying there is no point in have the nikud placed in the correct position. I dont agree. Obviously I dont move the trop manually in InDesign, either I use my external tool or I have it programmed into the font.

Kerning is the spacing between two letters, diacritic positioning is the position of a number of diacritics (up to 4) with respect to one letter and of course I need to keep the kerning. So if I kern the tav and the yud, then all the diacritics (trop and nikud) around the nikud have to remain in the same place regardless of the kerning between the tav and the yud. If you kern between the tav and the nikud and then the nikud and the trop and then the trop the yud and thats not even worrying about a dagesh or a shin dot!

Yes Harbs knows this very well indeed. He is one of the world experts on the subject!

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Thank you, Raphael, for your very enlightening answers. I had a very close friend that people called Raffy in Hebrew; I called Richard, by his English name. He was shot and killed in the first war in Lebanon. He left a newly married wife in her second month of pregnancy.

I also like you declare the merit of nikkud, taam etc. in the correct position, though we know that the correct position is subjective like beauty. Some artists appreciation typography where the correct position follow the graphic rules popularized by Eliyahu Koren, for example.

Others reject his talented contribution, like many of his peers, and prefer other valid rules popularized by hundreds of European printers over a two hundred year period. I don't think upper overstrikes like shin dot (a MicroSoft issue) didn't behave differently that their lower cousins.

If what you say is correct, and your know him well, I wish he joined this discussion, as his expertise would broaden our perspectives.

I like chocalate; you like vannila. Neither is more right, or more wrong.

By kerning I did not mean to refer to the conventional use of kerning, or the adjustment of space between letter so all the letter combination appear consistantly equal. Sounds democratic, doesn't it?

Rather, I was referring to a different form of kerning to allow for vowel and taam overstrikes. Here a negative value value would be applied to one letter and an equivalent positive value, and then the overstrike (zero width values) glyph would not 'jump' below the wrong character in the pair, but the space between could be slighted affected. Talk about about tedious!

Anyway, after OS X.3, this was no longer necessary. Forget Windows! It could be done on Windows until Unicode and OpenType.

[raphaelfreeman]

Eliyahu Korens system of positioning is considered to be the correct one. Zvi Narkis also uses the same system. The reason that European printers didnt do it in the same way was because of technical reasons not because they thought that their way was correct.

What Koren did in the 60s which was considered unique, was that each nikud and trop was positioned manually with letraset. This was extremely tedious (and not very consistant). It was labour intensive and expensive. Today, there is no technical reason not to correctly position nikud and trop just as there is no reason not to use full ligatures, true small caps and old-style figures in English.

I dont agree with your vanilla/chocolate comment. The correct positioning was researched extensively in ancient manuscripts by both Koren and later Narkis. This is why their opinions were accepted as being correct. They were/are (Koren passed away nearly 10 years ago, Narkiss is still with us (round the corner as it happens)) the authority on this system and I wasnt aware that anybody didnt follow their system.

I know that Harbs has ingenious ways of making the positioning easier, but these are programming fixes to make it easier. In the redigitisation of the Koren font that Im currently working on, the teamim sit correctly according to the Koren system which proves that it can be programmed correctly if one wants to.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Come on, Raphael. Vanilla only taste great, anot chocalate. With all due respect, this is not intellectually.

Very fine typography, like beauty, is a subjective art, not a science or medicine, as you not only humbly suggest, but emphatically state.

I believe the European printers knew what they were doing, as a famous early American type designers writes that the students of Bodoni were shown ancient Sephardic hand-drawn manuscripts of both the Vilna-like type design and in context hand-drawn samples of hand-drawn typesetting of Biblical Hebrew text, which contained nikkud taam meteg etc. combinations, carefully positioned following logical (computer-programmable) rules based upon an accepted Sephardic tradition.

On the other hand, if we carefully research both Mr. Eliyahu Koren's type design and his so-called typesetting rules, we will find that they are based upon and derived from Ashkenazic hand-drawn manuscripts. I actually saw this myself, and I imagine Mr. Koren a"h regrets in heaven he neglected to cite and properly credit his source. I hope your firm corrects this gross error.

Speaking of Tzvi Narkiss, I saw actual drawings of letter forms in Hebrew from the Warsaw Ghetto in a similar sans-serif design popularized later by Mr. Narkiss. The disregard not to give credit to Holocaust victims by Mr. Narkiss is embarrassing.

I would like to see these manuscript to which you refer that Koren and Narkiss used. At least, cite them, such as: date such and such, Hebrew U. library, bundle 770. Then, it be looked up.

Is Henri Freidlander, formerly of the Hadasa Printing School, I think of Betzalel Academy in Jerusalem. He was an extremely honorable honest Jew, and proud that his Hadasa type design became the standard for the famous ArtScroll Orthodox American publisher based in Bzrooklyn, now the largest Jewish publisher in the world.

Harbs doesn't sell the features you allude to at his web site, so I question their existance. Also, John Hudson didn't acknowledge that he taught Tzvika Volt or OpenType, making me think that its his fabrication. Raphael, don't believe everything you hear.

If I wanted to make a sale, and I was dishonest, I'd try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge as well. After all, its such a nice bridge, and a bargain, too.

[raphaelfreeman]

>I believe the European printers knew what they were doing, as a famous early American type designers writes that the students of Bodoni were shown ancient Sephardic hand-drawn manuscripts of both the Vilna-like type design and in context hand-drawn samples of hand-drawn typesetting of Biblical Hebrew text, which contained nikkud taam meteg etc. combinations, carefully positioned following logical (computer-programmable) rules based upon an accepted Sephardic tradition.

Okay. I personally disagree.

>On the other hand, if we carefully research both Mr. Eliyahu Koren's type design and his so-called typesetting rules, we will find that they are based upon and derived from Ashkenazic hand-drawn manuscripts. I actually saw this myself, and I imagine Mr. Koren a"h regrets in heaven he neglected to cite and properly credit his source. I hope your firm corrects this gross error.

Um, incorrect. We have a book which has all this information.

>Speaking of Tzvi Narkiss, I saw actual drawings of letter forms in Hebrew from the Warsaw Ghetto in a similar sans-serif design popularized later by Mr. Narkiss. The disregard not to give credit to Holocaust victims by Mr. Narkiss is embarrassing.

I dont see why we are degrading Narkiss in this conversation.

>I would like to see these manuscript to which you refer that Koren and Narkiss used. At least, cite them, such as: date such and such, Hebrew U. library, bundle 770. Then, it be looked up.

Unfortunately, with work pressures, I dont really have time to start researching this for you.

>Is Henri Freidlander, formerly of the Hadasa Printing School, I think of Betzalel Academy in Jerusalem. He was an extremely honorable honest Jew, and proud that his Hadasa type design became the standard for the famous ArtScroll Orthodox American publisher based in Bzrooklyn, now the largest Jewish publisher in the world.

But he didnt design trop. What has he got to do with it?

>Harbs doesn't sell the features you allude to at his web site, so I question their existance. Also, John Hudson didn't acknowledge that he taught Tzvika Volt or OpenType, making me think that its his fabrication. Raphael, don't believe everything you hear.

Stop. 1. Just because Harbs doesnt sell something it doesnt mean has hasnt done it. He has. I saw it on his computer and he taught me how to do it. 2. Who said anything about John Hudson? Im confused as to how this got into the conversation. Just fyi, the person programming the trop for the Koren font is a freelance programmer called Arieh Marzel who is working for me on this project. Masterfont drew the font and have sole ownership on the license of the font.

>If I wanted to make a sale, and I was dishonest, I'd try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge as well. After all, its such a nice bridge, and a bargain, too.

again, Im confused. Who is selling what to whom? I wasnt selling anything. I am pointing out that if you want teamim in the correct position there are a number of routes to go. I happen to have an opinion on the correct positioning of trop, Harbs has another opinion, and I guess you have another opinion too. When I do trop work for clients such as Chabad, United Synagogue, Talam, Gefen Publishing and of course Koren, I happen to follow the Koren system because I think it makes sense. Zvi Narkis was also kind enough to explain to me part of his system too. The only discrepency was the zarka and segol which Koren does differently from Breuer and I got advice from an expert in trop explaining that both these systems are acceptable so for all work except for Koren, I follow the Breuer positioning of the zarka and segol (incidentally Unicode messes up here because of the confusion).

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Re: Henri Friedlamder - such a sweet old man. He taught me a very important lesson in type design which the ArtScroll publishers overlooked. He did not want me to make the same mistake.

I mailed him a check for 100 shekels because I made the Hadasa font for use on the Mactintosh System 2 or 3. Some store paid me a thousand sshekels. He returned the check to me, writing that he sold the rights a long time ago to a European type foundry, now defunct, or bought out by Merganthaler, and was not entitled to the measly amount I sent him. Then he called me on the phone from I think Jerusalem to Kfar Chabad.

He wanted to speak to a Jew in Kfar Chabad. He didn't want hang up. If he wasn't religious before he called, he became religious before he hung up. I told him that he could be proud that ArtScroll typeset the Tanach in his Hadasa, and now most religious Jews in America used it to study Tanach. When he heard this, he crying like a baby for a long time.

Then, he approved what I made, praising it as being the most faithful ever made on the computer. He warned me of an error that I made, and mentioned that the rule he advised to follow was applicable to many type designs and many. Later, when I created the origonal Vilna type design used in the Romm Talmud, not the ugly replica made by Kivun, I saw that this rule was actually used also in Italy by the students of Bodoni who created the Vilna type face for Mr. Romm senior before he passed away. Hence, this rule taught to me by Mr. Friedlander was actually an ancient Jewish tradition.

[raphaelfreeman]

Kivun didnt create any fonts. They used fonts by Shmuel Guttman. Some people love his fonts, some hate. Your rant about Friedlander is interesting, but how is this connected to our conversation about trop?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

But [Friedlander] didnt design trop.

John Hudson studied the Hadasa design carefully. He loves the design. His Adobe Hebrew design was created by him using the Hadsaa design as one of his basic inspirations. The other inspirations were based upon ancient Sephardic manuscripts, which contain designs he adored. When my Henri (Hadasa) lacked taamim etc. he insisted that he himself will draw them by studying the Hadasa design carefully.

By the way, you might know this already, Hadasa was originally to be a face carved in stone, not a typeface. After it became popular nikkud was added, and it became a film based type design for first generation typesetting computer-based machine.

I don't even know if Friedlander drew the nikkud!

[_Irwin_Scott_]

So you are saying Kivun bought their Vilna from Guttman. I thought he was much better than that. You just caused my high regard for him to be lowered. My Vilna is an exact replica of Mr. Romm's based upon an ancient manuscript. Kivun or Guttman's Vilna is just another modern version. And the modern publishers, like Oz V'Hadar. Mr. Romm is likely turning over in his grave.

[raphaelfreeman]

Okay so lets get this straight. You are agreeing with me that Friedlander didnt create trop and possibly not even nikud. So why are we talking about him? I mentioned a couple of designers that did create trop and you countered me with Hadasa which seems by your own admission to be irrelevant.

Okay, so now you are saying that Hudson created the trop. Great. Out of curiousity does he leyn? Did he study teamey mikra? I just ask because I think its interesting that you chose him to create this.

Also very interesting that Hadasa that was based on an Ashkenazic sefer torah has teamim that was inspired by Sephardic calligraphy. I meeting of the edot!

Anyway, I would love to see a pdf of the result, you can e-mail me at raphael at korenpub dott com.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I dont see why we are degrading Narkiss in this conversation.

I am not degrading him. He's a great type designer. I'm just noting that his designs are not original. Like it says in Pirkei Avot, he's lacking the quality to cite his sources. To me, this is incorrect.

When I spoke to John Hudson about his Adobe Hebrew design, and noted that it was heavily influenced by Hadasa, he spoke openly about the influences.

In great type designs by true masters, it is not degrading to be influenced by predecesors. Only an arrogant person, too full of his or her own talents, can not acknowledge that they were inspired and who that inspiration is.

The history of early British and American type design is based upon this. Why should a talented type design in Israel be different?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

You are agreeing with me that Friedlander didnt create trop and possibly not even nikud. So why are we talking about him?

I thought that we were speaking about not only taamei mikra but also type design. Hence, the Hadasa divurgance.

I mentioned a couple of designers that did create trop and you countered me with Hadasa which seems by your own admission to be irrelevant.

No, Hadasa is relevent, as likely more people in the world lrearn Tanach in Hadasa than in Koren. Sorry, Raphael.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Okay, so now you are saying that Hudson created the trop. Great. Out of curiousity does he leyn?

No, he's not Jewish. He is Catholic. So was Bomberg, and he made the first Shas. He was priest, too.

Did he study teamey mikra?

Actually, yes. He knows the laws of leining better than you me and Mr. Koren put together.

I just ask because I think its interesting that you chose him to create this.

I didn't choose him to create taamim for Hadasa. He "begged" me to do it for free, because he loves Hadasa.

[raphaelfreeman]

>You are agreeing with me that Friedlander didnt create trop and possibly not even nikud. So why are we talking about him?
>I thought that we were speaking about not only taamei mikra but also type design. Hence, the Hadasa divurgance.
>I mentioned a couple of designers that did create trop and you countered me with Hadasa which seems by your own admission to be irrelevant.

I did not bring up Hadasa, you did. But I do love the font.

>No, Hadasa is relevent, as likely more people in the world lrearn Tanach in Hadasa than in Koren. Sorry, Raphael.

Not sure if that is true. The best selling Tanakh in Israel is the Koren Tanakh and all its competitors recognise this which is why they set their tanakhim in Keren. Apart from that, I would say that probably Vilna is the most popular. Yes Artscroll do sell a lot of Tanakhim, but I suspect that people actually learning Tanakh (and not Humash), are probably using Koren because its accuracy of the text which has been widely accepted (yes a little free marketing here 🙂 )