Hebrew fonts?

[_Tom_Fussy_]

I am in N. America trying to purchase a Hebrew font for use in creating some bilingual documentation for a product my company will sell. We are trying, if possible, to use a Hebrew typeface that would be considered "compatible" with Frutiger. Problem is, I am not finding any Hebrew fonts at all on Adobe's website as is presented to me in N. America. Does Adobe have any Hebrew fonts? How can I access and purchase them?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Also very interesting that Hadasa that was based on an Ashkenazic sefer torah has teamim that was inspired by Sephardic calligraphy. I meeting of the edot!

I didn't say this, Raphael. Don't make fun of the works of masters, like Friedlander or Hudson. I am sure G-d put them in this world to do what they did, that others couldn't do.

I said Romm's Vilna is Sephardic, and Koren's is Ashkenazic, even though ironically Lithuania is primarily Ashkenazic, and modern Israel is primarily Sephardic.

I added that Hudson's Adobe Hebrew is influenced by Sephardic calligraphy, somewhat like Friedlander's Hadasa is rooted in Romm's Vilna, which is also based upon an ancient Sephardic tradition.

[raphaelfreeman]

>No, he's not Jewish. He is Catholic. So was Bomberg, and he made the first Shas. He was priest, too.

Exactly. Dont you think thats a little strange. I mean, nothing against priests and all, but I hardly think Bomberg did Daf Yomi. Not that you have to do daf yomi to typeset a shas, but still, I bet if he did, there would be tens of thousands of Jews who would have appreciated it.

>Did he study teamey mikra? Actually, yes. He knows the laws of leining better than you me and Mr. Koren put together.

Really? how on earth do you know what I know and what Mr Koren knew about leyning? Isnt that just a little presumtious of you? Does he have a doctorate in trop? Was he a gabai in a shul for 10 years? Come on, lets not jump to conclusions here.

>I didn't choose him to create taamim for Hadasa. He "begged" me to do it for free, because he loves Hadasa.

Okay. Still would love to see a sample.

[raphaelfreeman]

>Also very interesting that Hadasa that was based on an Ashkenazic sefer torah has teamim that was inspired by Sephardic calligraphy. I meeting of the edot!
>I didn't say this, Raphael. Don't make fun of the works of masters, like Friedlander or Hudson. I am sure G-d put them in this world to do what they did, that others couldn't do.
>I said Romm's Vilna is Sephardic, and Koren's is Ashkenazic, even though ironically Lithuania is primarily Ashkenazic, and modern Israel is primarily Sephardic.
>I added that Hudson's Adobe Hebrew is influenced by Sephardic calligraphy, somewhat like Friedlander's Hadasa is rooted in Romm's Vilna, which is also based upon an ancient Sephardic tradition.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote.

[raphaelfreeman]

>So you are saying Kivun bought their Vilna from Guttman. I thought he was much better than that. You just caused my high regard for him to be lowered. My Vilna is an exact replica of Mr. Romm's based upon an ancient manuscript. Kivun or Guttman's Vilna is just another modern version. And the modern publishers, like Oz V'Hadar. Mr. Romm is likely turning over in his grave.

The Guttman Vilna that came with Dagesh was of course Guttmans. There are other Vilnas out there which Guttman didnt create. I know that Kivun licensed Guttmans Toptype collection. Guttman also sold his fonts to Microsoft. However, if it doesnt say Guttman Vilna and just Vilna, then this isnt Guttmans and perhaps you have a very very old version of Dagesh before they licenced the Toptype library. However, things were a bit of a balagan at Accent/Kivun

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I did not bring up Hadasa, you did.

I brought up Hadasa, because we were speaking about Koren a"h and your neighbor Narkiss. I reasoned that it we mention great type designers as these two gentlemen, we should also mention an even greater type designer like Friedlander...and that eventually led to Hudson, who was greatly influenced professionally not by Koren not by Narkis but by his true favorie, Friedlander.

If I was Narkiss' neighbor, I would visit him, and suck his brain for everything he knew about fine Hebrew type design.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

(yes a little free marketing here 🙂 )

OK, you have a sense of humor.

Hey, you didn't read what Raphael wrote.

Raphael: Shhh

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I would say that probably Vilna is the most popular.

I have a future at go.hebrew at gmail dot com

:)

[raphaelfreeman]

I dont think that there is any doubt that Henri Friedlander was one of the greatest type designers of our time. I typeset the new Singers Siddur (the Siddur of the UK) in a version of Hadasa (Fontbits) and the fact that Artscroll popularised it with their verison of Hadasa (Masterfont) shows what an amazing typeface it is and only points to the genius of Friedlander.

However, our discussion was about the "correct" positioning of trop. Whether you agree that trop is secondary to nikud (according to the opinion of Koren and Narkiss) or whether you see that nikud and trop to be a unit which can be moved (according to the non-Jewish printers), is a matter of opinion. And of course there are other clever solutions like Harbs. Personally I have always like Korens which I guess is why I accepted a position here recently, but whatever system you follow, we all accept (I hope) that the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle) and that the trop should not overlap the nikud. This is a programming challenge and this can either be solved by moving the diacritics, either manually or by a script (my system) or by programming the font (ultimately the best, but most expensive way).

[raphaelfreeman]

>I would say that probably Vilna is the most popular.

Yes in the States. However, in Israel, Koren is by far the most popular typeface based on the number of illegal renditions of it :-)

Seriously Koren is regarding in Israel as being the most accurate and the most beautiful Bible. Academics dont like certain things in it (they prefer Breuer), but the religious establishment loves it which is why in Bnei Brak they will only buy our Tanakh but wont touch our treif siddur (it has the prayer for the state of Israel in it)

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I hardly think Bomberg did Daf Yom.

He likely could read Hebrew in the Bible, but he knew the real money is in the Shas, as our sages promise that riches are linked to the Talmud.

To be an excellant typesetter, you do not need to "do" the subject matter you're typesetting.

In fact, the earliest editions of Chumash and Rashi containing dumb mistakes of so called "learned" typesetter who corrected Rashi.

[raphaelfreeman]

>To be an excellant typesetter, you do not need to "do" the subject matter you're typesetting.

I agree, however in the case of Hebrew fonts look at Microsoft. They have a version of Vilna with trop but you cant have trop after a chaf sofi with a kamatz. They built opentype tables which were just wrong because they dont understand how a Bible is typeset (never mind ktiv and kri).

I typeset stuff in Arabic which I dont understand, however, I think I would do a better job if I did since I would then know certain rules like you cant have "and" at the end of a line (or is it at the beginning, I forget), but since I dont recognise the word for "and" in Arabic, I ignore it. I think you will do a better job if you understand better what you do. Perhaps not the end of the world when typesetting instructions for some product in Arabic, but for some products, I think it is important.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Artscroll popularised [Friedlander's Hadasa] with their version of Hadasa (Masterfont)

I don't believe you just said that. I thought ArtScroll it from Guttman; it was orignally on a mini-computer, which I didn't think Tzvika knew to support.

You won't like what I say now. If Masterfont created their version of Hadasa by desecrating the Sabbath, its a mitzvah to burn the results, and to rather use something that did not have Sabbath desecration. That's the halacha.

I could just see it now. A wild bunch of Satmar come from Williamsburg and ArtScroll to the ground. Goodbye, ArtScroll.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

However, our discussion was about the "correct" positioning of trop. Whether you agree that trop is secondary to nikud (according to the opinion of Koren and Narkiss) or whether you see that nikud and trop to be a unit which can be moved (according to the non-Jewish printers), is a matter of opinion. And of course there are other clever solutions like Harbs.

This is super fascinating.

It cause me to totally rethink everything. I looked at it before not from that view, but rather from the point of view of design. Now, I have to look at the whole subject this way of subdiving the issues into two approaches, with a third possibility which I assume contains the first two.

[raphaelfreeman]

You are right. I dont like what you have just said. Who said that Zvika worked on Shabbat? A little bit of motzi shem ra there?

Again, lets try a bit of respect here. Lets assume that he didnt work on Shabbat which is of course against halakha and in this country also against the law.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle)

Tzvika told me in 1987 or 88 that the shvah or hirik should NOT sit under the bottom tip, so as not to visually confuse the viewer that the letter in question, the reish or dalet, is actually a little, as if no kid ever learned alef bais. And he's making the Koren font.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

the trop should not overlap the nikud

In good design, no graphic element should overlap another element. Except when its intentional, like very tight kerning to create a certain graphic effect.

[raphaelfreeman]

>It cause me to totally rethink everything. I looked at it before not from that view, but rather from the point of view of design. Now, I have to look at the whole subject this way of subdiving the issues into two approaches, with a third possibility which I assume contains the first two.

Ill let Harbs divulge his system to the world if he so likes. In terms of the Koren system, it assumes that the consonents are primary, the nikud, secondary and the trop, tertiary.

The way that it works is as follows:
1. The nikud is first correctly positioned under the letter.
2. The trop is then correctly positioned with respect to the nikud.

Now, when I say "correctly" that is where the design aspect comes in. For example, how do you position a mercha under the foot of the resh when there is no nikud? And what about the tvir. However, Ill leave that for you to think about.

Then we have to deal with collisions. The Koren system goes as follows:
1. can we nudge the nikud by a small amount to solve the problem. If we can, then great and that is what is done.
2. can we nudge the nikud on the letter and then the nikud on the following letter by a small amount to solve the problem?
3. if we cant do 1. and 2. (ie it would have to be a large amount), then we dont move the nikud at all and we move the trop.
4. sometimes we have to do 1., 2. and 3.

Lot of work, but the results are fantastic.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

This is a programming challenge and this can either be solved by moving the diacritics, either manually or by a script (my system) or by programming the font (ultimately the best, but most expensive way).

I chose the latter most because my desire is that these fonts should be used to recreate the classic library, preferably in the Romm Vilna design, as in my view there is nothing superior.

[raphaelfreeman]

>the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle)
>Tzvika told me in 1987 or 88 that the shvah or hirik should NOT sit under the bottom tip, so as not to visually confuse the viewer that the letter in question, the reish or dalet, is actually a little, as if no kid ever learned alef bais. And he's making the Koren font.

If Zvika told you that then hes wrong wrong wrong.

Zvika drew the Koren font based on the original drawings that we have in the office. He did it according to my and Esther Beers specifications.

He did not, and I have already mentioned this in this thread, program the font. Nor did he decide the correct positioning. This was decided by myself and Esther (well technically it was all decided by Esther since she taught me the system).

Masterfont also has the exclusive licence to sell the Koren font, but again he isnt programming it. Arieh is.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

based on the number of illegal renditions of it 🙂

I should make an authorized "legal" lsham shamayim without hilul shabbat, make it shareware, and post it on the Internet, with taamim as Romm Vilna used it. :)

[raphaelfreeman]

>I chose the latter most because my desire is that these fonts should be used to recreate the classic library, preferably in the Romm Vilna design, as in my view there is nothing superior.

Well so did I for Koren. But many people out there dont have a big budget so they choose the script method which gives the same result but of course means that the positioning is coded into the InDesign file rather than into the font.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

they prefer Breuer

What's that? Like Rabbi Breur of Washington Hts, NY?

[raphaelfreeman]

>I should make an authorized "legal" lsham shamayim without hilul shabbat, make it shareware, and post it on the Internet, with taamim as Romm Vilna used it.

And well sue the pants off you if you do! LOL

[_Irwin_Scott_]

in Bnei Brak they will only buy our Tanakh but wont touch our treif siddur (it has the prayer for the state of Israel in it)

Raphael, you're bigger than this.

To mention the state of Israel in a prayer is not treif. On the contrary, every Jew must pray for well-being of the country in which they live.

only Niturei Karta would say it treif, and they' wrong. Most religious Jews love the state of Israel dearly, wherever they may be found in the world.

Everybody knows that!

You are sounding anti-religious with such a remark. First, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. And by speaking positively instead, hilunim think about what you say, and become positive too.

[raphaelfreeman]

>What's that? Like Rabbi Breur of Washington Hts, NY?

HaRav Breuer z"l (check wikipedia for a full article and picture), is widely regarded as the world expert on Tanakh. He was not a fan of Koren to put it mildly.

The Bible editions of Mossad HaRav Kook and Chorev are based on his teaching. There is also a very interesting red Bible which is also based on Breuer but thats a whole other story....

Anyway, although Breuer is accepted by acedemia and the Gush, it hasnt gained full acceptance like Koren did, which is why Koren is bought by everyone from the secular, to the national religous to the charedim.

However, Breuer must not be ignored and our in-house Rav was a student of Breuer.