Hebrew fonts?

[_Tom_Fussy_]

I am in N. America trying to purchase a Hebrew font for use in creating some bilingual documentation for a product my company will sell. We are trying, if possible, to use a Hebrew typeface that would be considered "compatible" with Frutiger. Problem is, I am not finding any Hebrew fonts at all on Adobe's website as is presented to me in N. America. Does Adobe have any Hebrew fonts? How can I access and purchase them?

[raphaelfreeman]

>only Niturei Karta would say it treif, and they' wrong. Most religious Jews love the state of Israel dearly, wherever they may be found in the world.

Aha, so you would buy a siddur that tells you to say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut? And that the State of Israel is reshit zmichat geulatenu?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I agree, however in the case of Hebrew fonts look at Microsoft. They have a version of Vilna with trop but you cant have trop after a chaf sofi with a kamatz. They built opentype tables which were just wrong because they dont understand how a Bible is typeset (never mind ktiv and kri).

I placed nikkud above the baseline, and always placed the taamin below the baseline in chof-sofi and dagesh chof sofi, even though I could not find a precedent. John Hudson then questioned my action by pointing out tthgat there was no tradition to support this decision.

Koren didn't do this, and inconsistantly places the nikkud sometimes abover the baseline, and sometime below the baseline without any rule or logic. My positioning had rhyme and reason. Perhaps I was arrogant in my making a decision, or perhaps G-d agrees with me, and Koren made a blunder.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

(never mind ktiv and kri)

I never thought of it. I could build it into the font. Plus John has every appearance of anything in a database. So thefont can automatical switch appearance based upon the context or necessity. Do you understand?

[_Irwin_Scott_]

I typeset stuff in Arabic which I dont understand, however, I think I would do a better job if I did since I would then know certain rules like you cant have "and" at the end of a line (or is it at the beginning, I forget), but since I dont recognise the word for "and" in Arabic, I ignore it. I think you will do a better job if you understand better what you do. Perhaps not the end of the world when typesetting instructions for some product in Arabic, but for some products, I think it is important.

I agree with you. Sometimes, you're right. 🙂 But I'd take the job anyway, like you did. When I visited Adobe in Palo Alto (remember when, John W.?), I was told by an Adobe manager: "When you have a deadline, you just sh...t the stuff out." :)

[raphaelfreeman]

>Koren didn't do this, and inconsistantly places the nikkud sometimes abover the baseline,

What? no he doesnt. The nikud is always in the same place below the baseline. He also puts the kamatz and shva on the chaf sofi under the baseline although modern printing always put it higher, but this was done on purpose by him because he believed that this was correct (personally I disagree, but hes dead so I cant argue with him).

[raphaelfreeman]

> never thought of it. I could build it into the font. Plus John has every appearance of anything in a database. So thefont can automatical switch appearance based upon the context or necessity. Do you understand?

yes

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Who said that Zvika worked on Shabbat?

In every Adobe PostScript font, there is a record of the creation date, day and hour, and also the same for its last modification.

Most of his stuff were created and modified on Shabbat. Check for yourself. Its there; can't hide the evidence later.

Now, to publish non-sacred materials, like a newspaper, who cares?

But holy seforim, only the Mizrachi would matir it, because of hesaron kees.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Who said that Zvika worked on Shabbat?

What do you mean? Why can't an Israeli business do font work at home on Shabbat. And then, on Yom Reeshon, take the font to the business.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

The way that it works is as follows:
1. The nikud is first correctly positioned under the letter.
2. The trop is then correctly positioned with respect to the nikud.

I generally do that, but if things are tight, like under a yuhd vov etc. then I rather arrange things to fit without overlap.

John is working on a way to automatically rearrange nikkud taam and/or meteg in the font.

I think with his database, this can be done automatically whenever a user type a word from Tanach.

In fact, I believe eventually if I had Rabbi Farkash of Yerushalayim in a database, the font would automatically switch shva nas to shva plus the appropriate symbol above, and kometz to komatz gadol etc. and thereby encourage children to learn these important grammatical rules.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

how do you position a mercha under the foot of the resh when there is no nikud?

Exactly? Under the bottom tip. Where else?

[raphaelfreeman]

Look I dont know what Zvika did in the past nor do I know if his computers date was correct when he created fonts in the past. I only know what he has done for me and I know that he didnt work on Shabbat in the creation of the Koren font. I have follow the principle of assuming that if he did any averos in the past, he has done tshuva now. I think Artscroll must obviously follow the same principle.

Im not sure Im quite so holy as you. I have a problem in shul when davening and following the leyning because of course its all in the Koren font (our shul only allows Koren Chumashim and siddurim) and of course Im there going, oy, the mercha should have been put lower (yes, Im serious).

I know that Mr Koren was famous for his Thursday evening tactic. In Israel Friday isnt a workday and we work Sunday instead. At the end of the day on Thursday, he would collect all the work from every employee and take it home, only to return it on Sunday morning, lest anybody should accidentally come to work on Shabbat and work on the Koren Tanakh. I wonder that happened when they printed Bibles in the past. Probably not.

Anyway, Koren is a shomer shabbat religious company, so dont worry, you dont need to burn our siddurim and chumashim (unless you dont like the mizrachi component).

[raphaelfreeman]

>What do you mean? Why can't an Israeli business do font work at home on Shabbat. And then, on Yom Reeshon, take the font to the business.

Why do you assume somebody will mechalel shabbos. Thats not very generous of you.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Then we have to deal with collisions. The Koren system goes as follows:
1. can we nudge the nikud by a small amount to solve the problem. If we can, then great and that is what is done.
2. can we nudge the nikud on the letter and then the nikud on the following letter by a small amount to solve the problem?

I try to do this, too. It makes good sense.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

3. if we cant do 1. and 2. (ie it would have to be a large amount), then we dont move the nikud at all and we move the trop.

I disagree from a design standpoint, and it teaches the reader an incorrect message, overemphasizing the trop.

The trop stands now, for no good reason.

I think I don't understand you, because the above should be obvious.

Either I misunderstand, or Koren made repeated blunders.

[raphaelfreeman]

>John is working on a way to automatically rearrange nikkud taam and/or meteg in the font.

when you say automatically, what do you mean? Do you mean that the font can examine to see the shape of the nikud and team and then adjust accordingly, or do you have to tell it all the combinations?

>In fact, I believe eventually if I had Rabbi Farkash of Yerushalayim in a database, the font would automatically switch shva nas to shva plus the appropriate symbol above, and kometz to komatz gadol etc. and thereby encourage children to learn these important grammatical rules.

Well thats a little more complicated because there are many different opinions. For example, using Israeli pronunciation, do you say tzahorayim (according to Sefardi masora) or tzohorayim (according to ashkenazi masora) again when I say ashkenazi masora, that means Shabbat and Chochma, but it means that the first kamatz becomes a kamatz katan.

Also, within tefilla, different parts of tefilla follow different rules, some parts follow the grammatical rules of the tanakh, some follow that of the rishonim and some follow that of modern hebrew. We have a team of rabbinical grammarians doing this for the new Koren Siddur for the USA, where the siddur has kamatz katan, shva na and metegs throughout the siddur.

[raphaelfreeman]

>3. if we cant do 1. and 2. (ie it would have to be a large amount), then we dont move the nikud at all and we move the trop.
>I disagree from a design standpoint, and it teaches the reader an incorrect message, overemphasizing the trop.
>The trop stands now, for no good reason.
>I think I don't understand you, because the above should be obvious.
>Either I misunderstand, or Koren made repeated blunders.

Firstly, lets always assume a misunderstanding rather than putting down others.

My point is that its okay to move the trop downwards. If you are going to move the trop down, then put the nikud back in the correct position if possible. If not, then move the trop down and move the nikud. However, I never move the nikud by much and certainly dont want a nikud in the middle of the resh instead of the foot. Remember that by design, the trop is thinner than the nikud (and the nikud thinner than the letters) therefore it will never stand out.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Zvika drew the Koren font based on the original drawings that we have in the office.

It might be good then.

However, Tzvika drew very poorly before. Look at his David Aleph, in either regular or bold. A ridiculous fat right upper side. Unless he intentionally defigured the aleph so as avoid paying Itamar David, who could have sued the hell out him and destroyed Masterfont. Or he was sloppy.

I would scan his Koren and match it letter by letter to the original drawing to confirm there are no discrepencies.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

He did not, and I have already mentioned this in this thread, program the font.

That might be the heter, even if there was Shabbat desecration. Its a stretch though, because the ikar is the design.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Masterfont also has the exclusive licence to sell the Koren font, but again he isnt programming it. Arieh is.

I assume Arieh is Shomer Shabbat.

[raphaelfreeman]

> However, Tzvika drew very poorly before. Look at his David Aleph, in either regular or bold

I cant comment on the font David. I didnt commission him to redraw David. His drawing of Koren is absolutely superb and we are thrilled and trust me, we are a very hard client to please.

>That might be the heter, even if there was Shabbat desecration. Its a stretch though, because the ikar is the design.

Im not sure why we are having a halakhic debate on the Adobe forum. Can we please desist this line of conversation. Its unproductive. I also dont want to discuss Zvikas, Ariehs, Mr Korens, mine or your religious observance. It has no place here.

[Neil_Keller]

Gentlemen:
>It has no place here.

I agree. As the header says, this is the "Typography" Forum, and it should remain focused on typographic issues. Religious, political and social issues have other, more appropriate venues.

Thanks!

Neil

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Well so did I for Koren. But many people out there dont have a big budget so they choose the script method which gives the same result but of course means that the positioning is coded into the InDesign file rather than into the font.

There should be no compromise. G-d made money to pay the price. I disagree with this way of thinking, which penny wise, but pound foolish.

I don't believe the result is the same, even though I believe you are a very honest and truthful person. I think this is wishful thinking, because you created it, and can not admit at this time there is something better.

I have had a productive dialog with John Hudson, and as time advances, the ability to achieve unbelievable results will become available through the font approach. Its just a matter of time, as the rabbit discovered after the finish of the turtle.

[_Irwin_Scott_]

the pants off yo

my pants are pretty long :)

[_Irwin_Scott_]

Aha, so you would buy a siddur that tells you to say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut? And that the State of Israel is reshit zmichat geulatenu?

I carefully didn't say that. To Hallel on a day the Sages did not authorize is against halacha, even if one believe sincerely that G-d made a miracle in creating the State. Otherwise, we would add Hallel to every day of our prayers, because the Talmud attests to the fact it is a miracle for us each day just to wake. Since there have to rules, so no Hallel is said on Yom Azmaoot. People in Gush no loner say Hallel on Yom Kippur.

[raphaelfreeman]

Trust me there is no difference if one is careful. If I tell my script to move the kamatz 20 to the right or tell my programmer to move the kamatz 20 to the right, there is no difference. In fact, I have more options with my script because I can search for a longer sequence of characters and adjust each one accordingly, something that is very tedious to do in the font.

Of course the advantage of the font is that if somebody buys Koren then the teamim will automatically sit according to the Koren system (which of course can be seen as a disadvantage) since the positioning is hard coded in, however, if I put it into a script then the positioning is in the InDesign file.

The issue really is what are you doing with the font. If you are creating one Bible in one font then why go for the extra expense of hard coding it. However, if you are selling the font....

Personally I prefer the hard coding approach since Im doing many things in the font, but many clients are setting something small, like Megillat Esther on a one-time basis. They dont want to pay to have the font hard-coded with teamim for that. Or they just want the leyning at the back of a siddur and the shema. Again, cheaper to use my script.