@BobbyH5280 - well it's too late now to be commiserating the Macromedia deal, that allowed the only other true competitor and actual vector champion Freehand to become Adobe's property to kill of. I actually came here to promote the great work that Astute Graphics is doing with their plugins for Illustrator. As i wrote in their blog: they make Illustrator usable and even fun. That in addition to giving many of us hope regarding developers that still see that vector tools are still necessary and can be vastly improved upon. Illustrator fans owe it to themselves just to watch the intro-video to their new plug-in Rasterino http://www.astutegraphics.com/products/rasterino/ It's something like the above that would actually get people excited about going CC with Illustrator... not including the other great tools they provide. Unfortuantely we... and even they... have to put up with going out of their way just to make CC work out for them. Their blog is a good heads up. ... View more

@JET - Wow! What can I say? Some really... REALLY!... great, well thought out posts! Hats off! I specifically liked the one where you broke down the vector programs... and what's still broken in Illustrator. I would like to add the program Krita.org to the list of programs to keep an eye on... even though it's not a vector but an image program. The Transform Tool is pretty much what I have been asking for in PS and CorelPainter for like 10+ years! It's hopefully developers like these, introducing new advanced tools and getting some awareness and funding for their efforts, that will also spur a Renaissance in graphic design tools. Please be kind and dismiss for a moment my "high horse" comments, and see it is quality tools that I want and only quality tools. It would be "convenient" if my personal wishes would come true with CC eventually. However, you made so many good points, and brought back so many bad memories dealing with Illustrator's and Adobe's BS especially in regards to Freehand that I had truly suppressed because it was seriously frustrating...  I have no other alternative than to take a big step back and re-analyse this CC move. Another petition at Petitions Whitehouse Org - ask DOJ to investigate Adobe Systems, Inc. recent announcement to change its software license to subscription-only. Also, this extreme display of arrogance by Shantanu Narayen (Adobe CEO refuses to answer Australian pricing questions ) and him not being able to answer  a reasonable question... DOES NOT bolster any of my naive hopes for TRANSPASRENCY by this company. This video sickened me and actually tipped me to the other side of the line(!) As I've said before, there needs to be some major changes in the executive offices... regardless of whether this new idea works or not. You've got Bean Counters, Smake Oil Salesman and Marketing Gurus running a technology company into the ground. I feel really bad for the engineers: how do they deal with these guys day in and day out!  ... View more

[scott w] wrote: DocPixel-BMW wrote: ..... the only thing I can think of that would work is, after 24-months you can cancel and own the program... or 36 months the suite. .... IF that is implemented, yes it would suffice. But that's a mighty big IF. ...... Back-saving on the fly is not an option. See item 1 above. This is an unacceptable issue. I'm not of mind to simply "trust" that Adobe will do right by this. It is in their interest to keep me feeding at the CC teet as long as they can. It would seem, they feel holding me, or rather my files, hostage is their current solution. My business does not operate in a bubble. I require my tools to be accessable in any situation under any number of circumstances. This is why I purchased my tools to begin with - to allow my busines the flexibility to operate how it needs to. By being forced into a one-direction path which ends abruputly in a dead end, I am being asked to forsee a day when my business dies and I no longer need any of the tools I've spend so much money and time investing in. Adobe is asking me to support their new business model while at the same time ruining mine. Well I can definitly see your concerns... and truthfully... they should be the same ones as I should have. It all very well does come down to trust... and I can only agree with you that Adobe has NOT earned it over the last few years. Not to mention transparency. Adobe MUST as you say write this all down for all to see and understand... not in a legalese filled EULA... but plain, simple to understand English (translated later of course). They have to put it in "Stone" (Sans please ) whether they want to or not, if the Internet uproar is anything to judge by. And I do think perpetual licensing will live on in way or another as well, for the forementioned reason. Folks just are not going to stand by and watch this time, that's almost for certain. I guess you could call my stance simply "wishful thinking". All of my posts have stated somewhere my undying "hope" and how I would "like" to see Adobe progress. Maybe it's an Utopian wish(?)... but it doesn't stop me personally from seeing what they have to offer, even with the caveats that I secretly may have, and you express so eloquently. Re: Rent Abatement: ... it would be a first. At least in the software and tech arena. Paid web services and "rented connectivity (cells)" as an example can go down (and do) without recourse, and most if not all software is "as is" and "no implied usability"... blah, blah, blah. I can't see that going anywhere, but it would be interesting to try. ... View more

[scott w] wrote: My issues with the Creative Cloud have NOTHING to do with pricing. Doc has effectively made it about pricing by trying to defend the pricing. My primary issue with the Creative Cloud is the "No pay, no play" aspect of it. Don't let Doc make it about pricing.. that's not the problem. Yes, "No Pay, No Play" is what has everyone launching the pitch forks and sticking "The Greedy Pig". If Adobe is going to do away with versions the way they have stated they want to, the only thing I can think of that would work is, after 24-months you can cancel and own the program... or 36 months the suite. Similar to carrier/phone plans. It would be completely on Adobe's side then to update frequently and keep people either on CC or to come back to it as soon as possible. For people that don't have to share their raw working files, that could work.... couldn't it? I state specifically not sharing of raw working files, because as with a phone plan, any and every date is possible. You, or for instance the person that you're giving the working files to will always have to have at the very least, the same upgrades or features installed. I see that being a major mess, unless the CC versions will warn when opening a file what's missing to edit it. As I understand it, Adobe is not talking a simple "created in CS5 and trying to open in CS3" not working. It very well could look like a "missing fonts list" in a magazine layout without a font folder. @JET - "Latest offering" - on a weekly/monthly basis?... how are you going to determine when it's time to quit? Pronto after 24 months? As an example: so when an adjustment filter bug-fix doesn't fit your needs the week you can go "unlocked", you're going to quit the sub... without knowing beforehand that the "Rounded Corners Palette Widget*" from Photoshop will be added next week to Illustrator, and a week later to inDesign. It's unfortunate... but I truly don't think that Adobe is going to lay out a map of what their planning for new features or when they will release them. For CC to even be conceivable for Adobe and to keep people on it, they must pretty much do what they've said they would and actually have done with the Edge tools: frequent feature updates and bug fixes.  I've said previously that they surely have that trick up their sleeve and a staggered calendar all ready to go. If anything... it's just that "trick" that I'm accepting, look forward to, and am willing to pay for. Others consider it evil and a money grab. I'm certainly open to Perpetual Licensing even though I won't use it, I just don't see the benefit of it. * NOTE: back around the time when Adobe introduced the Plug-In architecture to Photoshop, there was some discussion about them also developing "modular software". It is something I remember because I always thought it would be a really good idea. We've had all of these multiple programs, duplicating the menus, panels, dialog boxes, prefs... what have you. A far more efficient approach would be to add those things as "feature modules" if you need them, not unlike the plug-ins we all enjoy today. Within Illustrator, look at all the goodness and features that the Astute Graphics plug-ins add (some would say, complete the mess that is Illustrator). What if Adobe is planning on going this route with their software as well? There's certainly recent evidence of this within the suite even today with the Mini Bridge (widget) for example. Just curious what others have to say without getting personal... egads! ... View more

JETalmage wrote: KEEP AN OPEN MIND! Egads. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!....and keep an open pocket book. JET Egads? High horse? Open Pocketbook? What is your problem? "Keep an open mind" is a bad thing to do these days? It's quite evident we're misunderstanding each other on very deep level here... so I'll just bow out.... or should I say down from the perch you've wrongly and unfortunately put my on. As the saying goes, "it's not the tools that you use, it's what you make with them". Here's wishing success with whatever tools you choose to use. ... View more

It has come to light that Adobe will also be "culling" Fireworks and it's users from the CC. http://thenextweb.com/dd/2013/05/06/yes-adobe-is-killing-fireworks-only-plans-security-updates-and-bug-fixes/ Posive Thinking at Work: Adobe is streamlining.... and gives the very same reasoning behind it's move as I thought they might when the time came: getting rid of overlapping functions and apps. Wild Speculation: Dreamweaver... is it next on the Dead List? Flash? What about Illustrator, even if it would have a different reason than the question below? Question to anyone who might know: is/was Macromedia's frameworks so screwed up or based on legacy compilers, that Adobe has decided to abandon the software rather than write new ones? This was whispered about as to the reason why FreeHand was abandoned and no longer updatable. I would love to hear the answer to that eventually, since I've actually asked it before. Message was edited by: DocPixel-BMW - spelling ... View more

MikeWenzloff wrote: Saw this on the PS forum. Hitler's response to CC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Iw9q2X9cU Quite a production and funny. Mike LOL! That was.................(breath).............. hilarious! Creativity in all forms... I can't get enough of it. Sign me up for "Creativity"! ... View more

Because I mentioned the Free Freehand movement in a bad light above, I think I should at least be courteous enough to say that I sincerely admired the resolve and their efforts in trying to get Freehand out of the grasp of Adobe's hands. Unfortunately it was not to be. At the time those efforts failed and a developer was found that was working on a "Freehand-like" solution to all of our dreams... that's when the disconnect from the user group's visions and my personal ones collided. You can read all about it on the Free Freehand Forum http://www.freehandforum.org/, and on Quasado's blog page http://quasado.wordpress.com/ Actually the developer is still working on an "alternative vector program" to Freehand and Illustrator, but has also decided to move into the "future tools" category by making it a web app first in the beginning. Interesting stuff and if anyone is inclined, he could use your support or at least you might keep your eye on his developments. ... View more

JETalmage wrote: Maybe I'm slightly jaded because of it, but the graphic design industry is my profession and I take it quite seriously. And what the heck about all that do you think makes you so dang special? You think others here don't have just as much, if not more, experience and talent than you do? You think you're unique because you "take it seriously," as if anyone else doesn't? Get off your high horse and stop making assumptions about people you don't know didly about. I'm 58. I've made my living doing graphics my entire life. My print graphics predates PostScript by a long shot. I was an accomplished airbrush illustrator before anyone ever heard of vector drawing programs. I was among the earliest adopters of Macs, and was building color-separated ads and prodouct collateral and collaborating with PostScript output bureaus back when the high end color houses I also worked with were still saying that PostScript was a flash in the pan. So drop your elitist self-glorification. You're just among your peers here, fella, not anything special. JET There is nothing special about me when discussing with "peers" such as yourself and the roughly 2 dozen others that contribute to this forum, and I certainly wasn't making assumptions about them or you. Your pulling my unwise "grandstanding" out of context. Before I move on, interesting how your "resume" and experience parallels my own (including airbrushing ). Only difference is regarding your post below, in that I keep up to date with all of the platforms, including Mac and Linux. Dropping knowledge of OS X when the majority of ad agencies use it as their platform of choice, would not be a wise decision on my part, even if the data is cross-platform. Whatever. I realize that this particular forum as well as all of the forums here at Adobe are for people, mostly newbies, to search for answers to their problems with the software. However, my patience is tested rather quickly when the questions have been answered many times over, and many others are a Google search away. Some of the questions have to do with the very basic training and understanding of the profession, where once again, a simple Google search would show the "desire" to learn and be a professional some day. Even the ultimate expert here who is always helpful and courteous, Monika Krause, has pointed people in the direction of Google some times. The democratization, easy availability, and low cost of the tools we use is enjoyed by us all. However there are some, including many people/businesses the world over that not only have lost respect for the graphics profession and the training involved to be good at it, but also believe they can do it all themselves with an office computer, secretary, and "acquired" software. When they hit a snag.... and they will... well here they are getting their free advice, troubleshooting and training. Does that make me an "elitist" for pointing that out and it getting on my nerves some times? After a solid day of reading multiple forums about The Adobe CC Bomb, what I came away with is that the largest number of people commenting and spouting nonsense about what Adobe is offering, are exactly those "generalized" above, the kind of people that can't be bothered to Google... or even read the darn release notes and FAQ sheet(!) It was ~30:1 ratio of informed vs. I-can't-be-bothered-to-read commenter's, and an even higher ratio of Pro vs. Pro-sumer, once-a-month users... moaning and complaining and slamming Adobe over something that a large majority of them really have no "business" using in the first place. IMHO, they certainly shouldn't have a large say in how Adobe moves forward with this, but yes, they are a vocal bunch to be sure and many have contributed to Adobe's coffers over the years. Regardless, they are guaranteed NOT to move Adobe and it's tools forward in the least. They have stated as much 1000's of times, even if it means better tools for the job. That's just plain sad! JET, you may remember me backing the Free Freehand movement and an alternative to it and Illustrator a while back. Well I stopped being supportive within that group for the very same reason that I'm backing Adobe to move forward here. I want ground-breaking tools and software, geared towards professionals, using up-to-the-minute technologies and being relative for our design tasks tomorrow and in the future. The FF group almost to a person wanted to stand still and create a clone of FF. As much as I liked and depended on FF in my career, I certainly saw many areas where it could be improved rather than simply cloned. A large number of people bashing Adobe right now, also want to stand still... and many of them express their desire to do so until "CS4, 5, 6 no longer works". I personally don't see these "voices" moving the industry forward in the least, and it gets under my skin to be honest. These are essentially the same voices we heard in the mid-80's, that are trying to alter the direction not only of Adobe, but the industry and it's tools it works with. Just imagine if we stopped with version 1.0 of all of our programs, or listened to the naysayers in the 80's or 90's. Albeit and sadly, many of the most vocal were professionals in their industry at the time. Not only was the debate more interesting in the 80's and 90's, but you also were able to learn and benefit from the "old" industry practices and apply it to the new digital world and tools we were getting our hands on. Let's also not forget, we also had to have a lot of faith and dreamy vision to go against the wisdom of those pillars of our industry in litho, pre- and post production, layout, web-, offset and silkscreen printing. This time the debate is being steered by a mob of casual users, people that can't find the time to read, and with a fairly large contingent of pirates among them. Re: Pirates... yes, I'm sure they'll find a way as they always do. However, it just may be more trouble than it's worth for the small businesses and sweatshops that take advantage of this "avenue of acquisition". I think that's all Adobe is after. Back to topic: Personally, I think we have to keep an open mind on this and see what happens in the coming months. I know my dreams are bit on the rosy side, but some of the detractors are far too close to the skeptical end of the spectrum. I do know for a fact that I won't be standing still and will be taking advantage of all of the tools that Adobe CC has to offer. It's an incredible line-up now, with new tools like the Edge series coming into it's own, and some of the cloud offerings look interesting to get involved with. When I think back, wow!... as a student I would have even worked a 4th or 5th extra job to afford this package every month! I'm personally not fearful that my data is going to disappear, nor that my version of choice that I used to create it will stop working either. I really don't see the large drawbacks that many people are worrying about to be honest(?). In closing... I was silly to be goaded in posting my experience to boost my speaking points, and did so extremely sloppily. I never meant to generalize that the people I was debating with here were any less talented and/or dedicated than I am... considering that many of them surely are more so. Generalize being the key word... and without a doubt... one of the stupidest things anyone can do, so I sincerely apologize for that. *** JET, you asked, "What do you know about us?" Think positive: we all know a little bit more about each other now which I consider a good thing for future debates. Part of the human interaction when writing in blogs or forums, is that we often get side-tracked by NOT knowing where someone is coming from. We've hurdled that barrier admirably I would say and won't get off-topic as often in the future *** still not sure where WZ is coming from most of the time (?????)... and how ironic that WZ and I are in the same club.    Thanks for the reminder scott_w to say, that while we can poke fun at WZ... he has it right here (for once): KEEP AN OPEN MIND! ...and before someone hijacks that... you can keep the "and an open pocketbook" cleverness to yourself! We've heard that joke and I beat ya to it. ... View more

Wade_Zimmerman wrote: I made a feature request when Illustrator 10 came out to be able to pay for the software on a monthly subscription basis with the ability to pay for programs on a month by month basis, but the way the cloud works is bvetter than what I wanted and more economical in the long run. Darn Wade. You're going to have to stop letting your foot talk to your tonsils... and tell the wall to quit hitting you in the head! You walked into this foo-foo... now get yourself out... if not only for a little humor relief at the end of a long heated debate. ... View more

CarlosCanto wrote: Doc, you kind of make sense, it obviously works for you...and others that oppose have their good arguments also, a lot has been said already... ...but in one of your comments you say you "hope" this time, "for real", "no more holding back", they will fix the long living bugs... ...for me, it is a major issue, the lack of commitment to fix what's broken, for whatever reason...if the software delivered we will probably wouldn't be having this conversation, if we loved the software we would be happy to jump to the new business model innovation Adobe is offering, instead of fearing for the unknown. Actually I dinged Adobe for this on another forum earlier today. If Adobe hadn't been so fixated on marketing and gobbling up new features and bug-fixes for future releases... AND... would have continued to be diligent in fixing bugs as they used to be a few years back... YES... the debate of whether this CC is worth it would have been settled long ago at this price. This is also why I'm calling for the heads at the top... among other valid reasons. They've screwed not only us... but the very assets they depend on moving forward: their employees and talented engineers! I'm am not going to say anything more than, the chaos within the development teams and management has been whispered about more than once in my presence. ... View more

James_233 wrote: I agree with you about a shake out in Adobe admin. And that there have not been enough bug fixes. I'll add there have not been enough improvements for print specialists. Now if these overdue fixes and improvements are finally done, Adobe will now require us to pay a monthly fee for them. In my first post... I said that I actually suspect they will do just that: they have been holding back almost surely! They will get you on board one way or the other. If I may... you asked for an equivalent Illustrator replacement on the Mac. Since you're doing "print"... I really hate to say IMHO, there is none. There is some "hope" with Sketch - http://www.bohemiancoding.com/sketch/ ... and of course InkScape. The other alternatives at the moment are the old stand-by programs like CorelDraw and Xara on the Windows side, installed on a Mac within Parallels. There were some rumblings that Xara might come to our rescue and release a Mac version. Corel I have absolutely no hope for as a company. Worse than Adobe from my many years as a Painter enthusiast! ... View more

@James_233: I should write between the quotes... but: 1) my post was certainly not meant as a personal attack on anyone... and I'm happy to discourse with a colleague. I am not sneering at all... but I am (very) concerned... and have been for quite a long time... of which you stated in your second paragraph. 2) "Many of the newbies are likely to be from big companies who have provided them with software but no training (or very little)." I mean really! You certainly are NOT trying to make me feel guilty for NOT helping a big company screw my small to mid-size clients out of projects... by not helping their "truck driver turned graphic designer" or someone they pulled out of the mailroom because they've heard the term P before... are you? Newbies with no training? As well meaning as I think your post is in regards to "employees", you do know that you're taking food out of the mouths of those that DO have training... have paid for it dearly... and also are considered committed graphic design professionals because they also continue to learn on their own. You shouldn't get me started there, or please use a better example than the rewrite of "think of the children" retort(!) 3) "If Adobe is culling anybody it is the people who are print specialists who produce long printed documents that need good footnotes (for instance) and fixing the indexing, but Adobe is not providing such updates. How many upgrades have there been for InDesign since we first asked for footnotes?" We can certainly agree on that! Print.... (long pause)... what can I say other than something I believe I stated months back here: I think it's dead, as well as the decent tools and any advances in print-production along with it. Whether now or in 5 years or 10... it's a niche. Something akin to lead type, typesetters, and real-sticky-ink printing presses. It won't completely die... but it is no longer something I would specifically train for. I've been advising my clients for well over a year now to get going learning e-book production, more web and app skills, re-purposing everything they've created for print for the eventuality of clients needing 'tomorrow' digital equivalents. With that said... Adobe has made some serious progress in digital delivery and design tools and I do think they will concentrate in that area most going forward. As it relates to this particular forum, I certainly would not be surprised if Illustrator itself is some day "culled" from the CC and left to die. The whole CC needs better integration and the removal of unnecessary overlap of features. Even my favorite Photoshop, does not need video editing(!) In a perfect optimist world, maybe... just maybe... that's Adobe's plan, considering that there's no longer a need for it with a complete CC sub. As an optimist... yes.. I'm looking at the positive side of possibilities, and trying to get into the heads of the planners behind this rather bold and controversial move. 4) "It's more important to keep the cash flow coming in and the investors happy." Well... that's kind of stating the obvious. There is no other reason for exsisting...for a publicly traded company in our modern capitalistic world... now is there. It is short-sighted though and I am not agreeing that it is the right way to view a technology company... far from it! However if the cash-flow allows Adobe to lighten up the marketing dept and feature schedules needed to sell new versions.... and put that cash into continuous development and timely delivery of it.... I'm all for it. If my optimism is misguided after a year or 2... I'll be the first on the list to have Adobe class-action sued, broken up, and the officers hung from their toes on 345 Park ave, SJ!!!!!! ... View more

[scott w] wrote: @Dreia, Yes you can still use legacy versions for the time being. It is absolutely possible to run CS4, CS5 or CS6 right along side a CC subscription. But in 3 or 4 years time, the CC model fails. There will be no legacy version. You either have the latest CC version or nothing. That is one of the biggest issues for me. While the CC structure is workable this year.... it won't be next year, or the year after. And given Adobe's constant changes in policy regarding this, there's nothing to say users who blindly jump on the CC bandwagon won't be screwed again in 12 - 18 months. Adobe has done nothing over the past 3 years but show that they devalue loyal users more and more. @Doc, your'e still focusing on pricing.... that's NOT the major issue. OK. I've said my peace re: pricing. Re: legacy versions: either in an interview or a statement from Adobe, I'm sorry... I've read too much on this subject over the last couple of days to remember... they stated that they will be having previous "versions" and roll-backs on their servers. How far back is naturally the concern. I'm sure due to the mega-uproar over the announcement and Adobe stilll being in the middle of MAX, more details will come to light after the event. I also will agree that the last 3-7 years have really been a waste at Adobe in regards to the state of improvements and bug-fixes. This. must. Be. Remedied. IMMEDIATELY! ... for any of this to be worthwhile for Adobe in the end. I'm also going to say, that regardless of the success of the roll-out, the stock-price, whatever... I would love... really jump-for-joy-LOVE!... if there's a shake out at the top. Succintly: get rid of Shantanu Narayen (C+V for spelling) and any of the bean-counters and marketing gurus that have made a thorough mess of Adobe over the last few years. They're as bad as, if not worse than Microsoft with their hubris... and betting on the next wave of technology is for all to witness... not their strong suit! I think the engineering talent is there... but they have been held back by marketing/profit tactics. I truthfully don't think this is one of those tactics though. It does appear to be a streamlining and focus planning. Now it remains to be seen if and whether they can execute those strengths within their software....?! I'l stay safe-side and bet 50:50. ... View more

@ JET and James_233 Elitist? Lofty attics? I confess: guilty as charged, although my attic is heated! Do you know how many hours of my life I've spent learning my profession and the tools to do it effectively? Skip life... what about just last week and the many consequtive ons before it? I'll tell ya... roughly 20 - 25 hours ONLY staying up to date, relavent learning, reading and trying out new workflows, methods, plugins, and software. That's all non-billable initially, but yes... I do eventually get paid back for that investment. Not only in production but also in consultation fees. Maybe I'm slightly jaded because of it, but the graphic design industry is my profession and I take it quite seriously. If that makes me elitist in my assessment of the CC news, or causes me to become just a bit testy with those that are "doodle and dabblers" and their entitlement viewpoints, then by dawg... so be it! Considering that I've confessed, I'll take this a step farther. What if Adobe is actually culling the user-base on purpose for the express purpose of catering to those people that already know what the difference between a PNG and a PDF is? What if instead of all this "money-grabbing" and "Adobe's out to screw us"  trash-talk... Adobe and it's engineers really do what they say, and offer every new feature possible (and hopefully bug-fix!) ASAP, for those of us that know how to learn them AND make use of them... without reiterating the wheel and doing all the hand-holding every time something "moves". Considering that many of the "anti-change" people are not even graphic professionals, stating that they don't need any of the new stuff, and are content with CS3, 4, 5, 6 whatever. OK. Let 'em stay there and be content. Do any of the pro's here really need their noise to prevent us from moving on and discussing new tricks, methods, and workflows... rather than telling someone for the 1000th time, verrrrry slowwwwly...."there is no crop tool for pictures in Illustrator".... and helping them reinstall on a borked under-powered budget PC where they don't even know how to navigate the folder heirarchy? If knowing these simple things, or learning/reading about them at all, makes someone an "elitist"... I'll accept that title gladly. The state of the graphic arts industry and it's professional tools has been stagnant and going down hill for years now. No help from Adobe on that front either. My sincere wish that once this Adobe CC business is up and running, and the naysayers are either in or out, that Adobe will find the time, energy and resources to get back to creating professional graphic design tools and won't waste any time getting them delivered to us. Period. ... View more

@James_233 - my lofty attic with a 30+ year career, 20+ of which I've used assorted Adobe software to do very well for myself? A lousy $50.00 got added to my monthly expenses and write offs. Do you know that at one time not long ago, that was the cost of 1 family of 6 fonts? Also, that amounts to roughly 30 minutes of my billing time... and about an hours worth of a normal production worker's. Please. Accept that CC is a business software suite (not Illustrator necessarily....see below). It is not prosumer, nor targeted for hobbyists. And as I stated in my above post, addictions, hobbies and other service subs... where you spend may times more, never have a chance of MAKING you money... probably ever. @JET - do not forget many of my other posts where I fully agree with your assessment of Illustrator. It most definately is the weekest of all the software programs within any suite version, or now on CC. I personally think it should be offered free or at most $35.00 perpetual. It really is not worth more than that. You are spot on, and I'm constantly on a look out for something to replace it for vectors. And yes... I still have FreeHand in a Snow Leo config for "professional" work. So I guess I should apologize for a total CC-rant on this forum. Aside from Illustrator, IMHO any 2-3 remaining CC programs are well within the monthly subscription price. Everything else is gravy. ... View more

This is probably going to be a rather unpopular post as well as contradictory in places, but my 2 cents it is. First off, with this announcement from Adobe, the blogs and forums on the net are in an amateur-hour uproar over a PROFESSIONAL software package, that in my very honest opinion... many should not even be using. You've got literally 100's upon 100's of people quoting how they use the software only once in a blue moon to do x, and my next questions are: why are using a pro package?... where did you get the software?... and at what point in time did you decide that you're entitled to a professional toolbox to crop a picture or draw a green vector box with text? I've posted more than a few times that I felt that a number of posters here should never even assume that they could ever learn Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. let alone use it... and the suspicion that some were wasting our time here because: a) they don't have the slightest idea about the graphic profession at all (witness a recent discussion on this forum re: Convert PNG to Vector... and the poster doesn't have the slightest idea what either is for).... and... b) it appeared they "picked" up said Adobe program on the net, or in a garage sale bin somewhere and thought that "now", they would, could and should be a graphic professional business. With that said, I'm all for the accessibility and affordability of tools to allow people to experiment with their creative side. Honestly, Adobe is actually making this hobbyist experimentation even easier and more affordable. However at a certain point in time, if you want to continue to indulge your "hobby" and "experimentation", you are being asked to pay for it.... and possibly to get paid for your successful efforts at learning the package. What really is wrong with that? A couple of levelheaded posters have mentioned all of the other things people purchase for far more than $50.00/month... that either get swilled, swallowed, wasted, and clearly have no added value whatsoever than to quell an addiction, and/or displays a lack of discipline, planning and unwillingness to compromise egotistical and instant gratification (unnecessary driving for instance). Again: these are professional tools... for professionals... to actually make money with. If you can't make even $50.00 a month in invoices... you should consider that you either can't afford your hobby, or take a look at other alternatives. Speaking of alternatives: yes it is unfortunate... and I hate Adobe for it... that Freehand was killed off rather than sold. It narrowed the alternatives in the vector software market drastically. Competent, inexpensive and even free pixel-based editors are available on all major platforms... heck... even on iPads and Android tablets. I actually have some "professional photographer" clients that would easily and be better served by Google's Picasa or iPhoto to tell ya the truth rather than PS. At the very most, Lightroom... which BTW is still an extremely powerful piece of software for a small perpetual license price(!)... or Elements. Pro and Con(job) here: Pro: Adobe actually plans on updating and integrating features far faster than they were previously.... and I seriously do think they will do this. I could almost bet that within this year, we'll see a number of features that users have been asking for for years now... and amazingly, bugs will start to get fixed within weeks, rather than months and years. Con(job): I wouldn't put it past Adobe that they have a rather large list of bug-fixes and features that they have been holding back from us, as they prepared for the moment that they would drop the CC-Only bomb and make it a very compelling subscription, if not a "must have" going forward. Clever? Devious? Evil?... or just business? Last but not least, I'm just sick and tired of all of the "entitlement" people spouting off about software they do not need, use professionally, nor even take the time to read up and to learn it. Jeez! Look at some of the stupid comments here from people that haven't even taken the time to read what the CC subscription includes, what it costs... the first year incentive... the way it works (authenticating over the net... with cloud SERVICES added as a bonus!). Just the software: $50.00/Month... un...be....lievable! And if you take the time to learn any of it... one job from one program, pays for the whole month! Experiment with the rest to your heart's content. Try that with your Starbucks, Micro-brew, chocolate and chips, or driving habits! Rant over... sorry for the long post. Possibly some morsels of truth or food for thought. Message was edited by: DocPixel-BMW - spelling check. ... View more

...although... I have also commented about this "suspicion" in a couple of posts in this and the Illustrator Forum. Not necessarily regarding this particular problem though. I've recently upgraded close to 40 Macs to Mountain Lion,and to  CS6, using time-honored albeit time-consuming best practices: 1) repairing permissions FIRST, then doing a Time machine backup; 2) install Mountain Lion from a burned DVD or better, a USB drive, on a freshly erased/properly formatted drive; 3) repair permissions again, then do all the OS updates if any; 4) repair permissions... yes again... and then migrate from the Time Machine Backup all of your previous software and settings; 5) repair permissions... once again... and only then install the CS6 suite in it's entirety.... 6)... last but not least... you guessed it... repair permissions (especially since Illustrator requires a Java 6 runtime, where almost always permissions are wrong). Restart... and voila! Everything works perfectly. Every single time. Takes longer... but as far as I'm concerned, well worth the extra time in the beginning rather than try to troubleshoot problems down the road. ... View more

rijackson741 wrote: When I do that it does not replace the embedded image with a new embedded image though, it replaces the embedded image with a linked image. So "relink" is a misnomer (something cannot be relinked when it was not linked in the first place), and what it does with an embedded image is kind of dangerous, because the AI file is no longer independent of other files. Yes it does replace one embedded image with another embedded image of your choice.... if you remember to "uncheck" Link in the open dialog window. ... View more

Monika Gause wrote: rijackson741 wrote: Copy and paste doesn't retrieve the original image. Why not? You will have trouble getting the original resolution in case the image has been scaled in Illustrator. Yes you're right about that, and it is the best way if you have the original Illustrator file with the embedded image. In my defense, I'm mostly having to do this sort of thing with PDFs that are sent to me. Most cases I have to change something in the PDF or pull artwork out for another project we are working on. After opening the PDF in Illustrator, we then just copy the image and even paste it straight into an email (Mac) and request the original file. If the original is not to be had, we then paste the image into a new Photoshop file and relink it. If need be, we'll replace it with another image later. @rijackson --- you most surely can "Relink"... well that's what the button you choose in Illustrator is called... even if the image is embedded. This will place the image in the exact same place and size as the embedded image, thus "linking" it if you checked the Link box when placing. Also, you can always choose Link Information and see what transformations the image has went through regarding size and rotation. This is also with a native Illustrator file only. The information can be used to calculate what you need to do to the image to revert to it's original size and rotation. Rather unfortunate, because something intuitive like Freehand used to have, like changing the percentage and angle in the Appearance panel was far better and easier to revert images, embedded or linked. @rijackson --- considering all of the features and functions that Illustrator still does not have or are incomplete... yes, Illustrator as a whole is pathetic as the only pro vector alternative on the market. Not just this one omission, which is easily worked around. That's what I was trying to say to wazi9909. * I just thought it should be mentioned again, that Monika's correct answer only applies to a native Illustrator file if you have it, AND if you save with PDF Compatibility or as an Illustrator native PDF. With any and all other PDFs saved with a preset like for prepress... the images have been compressed, and will be as we call them "baked". No matter how you copy, paste, export or open, the resolution, size and quality is "finished". ... View more

rijackson741 wrote: I think Adobe illustrator should have this feature included in the later versions. I wouldn't be happy to first buy an adobe suite, and then for a small tiny feature I need to buy another 3rd party software or plugin. This is pathetic. I'll second that. I just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to send an embedded image to Photoshop to edit it. After much time wasting it seems I am forced to conclude it's not possible. I find that astonishing. I have only just switched from Corel to Illustrator (CS5) and have found many things I like, but this a a glaring hole in the prtoduct. Can't believe you didn't try Copy and Paste. My tip above is something I have used cross-platform, cross-software for I believe 15 years or so.... more than likely longer. ... View more

wazi9909 wrote: I think Adobe illustrator should have this feature included in the later versions. I wouldn't be happy to first buy an adobe suite, and then for a small tiny feature I need to buy another 3rd party software or plugin. This is pathetic. OK... I'm just curious as to what is so hard about Copying the embedded image, go to Photoshop, choose New, making sure Clipboard is the right size, and depending on your illustration, that RGB or CMYK is chosen... then paste as pixels. Save the Photoshop file. Then click on the picture in Illustrator and choose *Relink from the Control Bar or the Links panel, choosing the saved Photoshop file. Done. * This time remember to check "Link" at the bottom left of the open dialog. @olpr1234: Great tip about saving many RGB pictures out using SVG! @wazi9909 - re: your "pathetic" comment -- there are many problems and ommissions within Illustrator that were/are present in other software packages. Too bad this is just not one of them to be considered "pathetic". Try investing a little more time learning Illustrator and the assorted programs within the Suite. As it relates to supporting plug-in developers for all Adobe products, but Astute Graphics in particular: you will never know the power of Illustrator unless you invest in their plug-ins! An absolute must for all power users or pro's that spend the major part of their day in Illy. I couldn't live without 'em. ... View more

Actually you're spec'ing the iMac on the low end to tell ya the truth. Naturally it all depends on what you're planning on creating with the CS6 suite. Whether it's Mac or PC, you want to go with as much RAM as your machine can handle... I consider 16gb to day to be the minimum, especially if you plan on working fluidly with 2-3 CS6 apps open, for example Photoshop, Bridge and InDesign, which is a common scenario. You could also bump up the graphics chip to 1gb as well. Adobe always has and will probably be, the most demanding programs and suite on your computer. So, if you want peace of mind and a solid workstation (yes, workstation) now and for a few years into the future, consider maxing out at least the RAM and GPU. NOTE: any new iMacs coming to market "may" just have the very same problems your last 2 did if you purchase a similar config. Just sayin'. ... View more

OK folks, back to the original question, is there a way to select only the objects contained within a selection marquee. A lot of the answers submitted offer complicated, multi-step processes to what should be a very simple need. Drag the window to the right to select only the objects within the marquee, drag the window to the left to select any objects touched by the marquee. Click, drag, release. Ta dah! So based on this discussion I am guessing that the answer to my original question is no. So maybe the developers will consider adding this feature to future updates. I am always impressed by users inventiveness in getting around roadblocks in programs and bending them to their will. And I am always flumoxed by developers who load programs with minutely detailed tools but overlook the obvious in offering simple productive tools for frequent tasks. What do you want for an answer, because it has been stated many times above: NO! There currently is no way to only select objects that the Marquis surrounds, without picking up objects on the outside of the Marquis.... without a script that is. Don't bother asking for it as a feature either, becuase there has never been a "decent" request that has ever been added by Adobe when it comes to their selection tools. Besides, I hear they will be integrating video editing in Illustrator CS7, and that's taking a lot of their valuable time and expertise s/ ... View more

Something better than both AI and FH is long overdue in this market. The above sentance is probably the VERY BEST I have ever read regarding The Great Freehand vs. Illustrator Debate! (Again-you very well know this. For some reason, you just seem compelled to jump in with an emotional AI-defensive knee-jerk reaction and thinly-veiled personal attack any time I mention it. Why don't you react similarly whenever anyone compares AI functionality to another Adobe app, like InDesign? No, you're carrying some chip on your shoulder about me in particular, and frankly I'm tired of your constant derision. You follow me around like a little attention-starved puppy.) He's lonely (as always) and looking for attention. You're just feeding him by giving him tasty bones. But the category of mainstream 2D vector drawing programs is in the lethargic doldrums, because of Illustrator's market domination, and its eternal snail's-pace development. All other graphics software categories have left it in the primordial dust. The most common (in other programs) features and interface improvements are still missing in Illustrator. How long did it take for AI to understand "Page 2"? (As you know, I can cite many other common functions which appeared in FH years--sometimes decades--before they appeared in AI.) How long has the ability to override AI's contact-sensitive selection mode been needed in AI? +1 (Thousand!) = nailed it! ... View more

Wade_Zimmerman wrote: JETalmage wrote: What's really needed, though, is the ability to designate any simple closed path as either a selection marquee (with the contact senstive toggle, of course) or as a cutting path, and to designate any simple open path as a cutting path. (And all path cutting tools, of course, should be able to handle open unfilled paths as well as closed or filled paths.) JET I am not sure of this I think that might not be so good an idea, perhaps a precision cutting tool that you can create specialized cutting selection and even save them but turning existing paths into cutting shapes I think presents unnecessary problems. Fo instance does it remain an ordinary path if turned into a cutting path, does it auto delete itself after cutting does it have to moved once finishing the cut etc, No I think a well thought out cutting tool would work better and that should be developed by the user and the team through a test process and public input. And I am not so sure that the cutting tools should cut the way you describe I can see where you might want to cut only closed paths even though there are open paths as well. I think it has to be thought out better. @Wade AFAIK, an "exact cutting tool" doesn't really need to be made. I personally use non-filled paths on top of closed or unclosed filled objects, and choose "Divide" from the Pathfinder panel or Menu.... every day with no problems. Paths themselves can be "cut" using the Scissors Tool, and for real "down and dirty" on closed paths, the Knife Tool. @ JET (And all path cutting tools, of course, should be able to handle open unfilled paths as well as closed or filled paths.) True. ... View more

So let me get this straight: you need to have both a Perpetual License ... AND... a Cloud Subscription to enjoy all of the new and forthcoming features/functions of Illustrator, or any other CS6 program? Interesting. So as someone mentioned, it's possible we may see new selection tools, be able to open FH files (again)... or OMG.... Paste Inside (all FH related), but only with a Cloud Sub? Basically, a Cloud Sub then is like a ~monthly Update price. OK. That sounds like a good idea to alleviate the piracy problem that Adobe faces. However, not so much for people that pay for perpetual licensing because they live in areas that don't have reliable or broadband Internet available to them. Which makes Cloud computing quite worthless. ... View more

@Noel - It's rather interesting that you have stated a few times that it appears that the majority of the problems being experienced are by Mac users. I'm curious as to what Macs, OS version, specs, and PS Settings are being used on the Macs that Adobe uses to demonstrate the new features in CS6. I see nothing other than Macs being used, both on AdobeTV and recently the entire series in London Creative Week. Apparently all of those "Macs" are running PS6 and CS6 perfectly. Regardless of user preference and statistics that point to Adobe being equally represented on Windows and Mac systems, I think it goes without saying, that the systems being used in top production environments, ad agencies and publishing, are still overwhelmingly Mac OSX. I don't want to get into a platform war here, but even Adobe... regardless of their disputes with Apple and SJ in particular... still deem it fit to use Macs in their demos, tutorials, promotion materials, etc. It does then "appear" and would be simple "graphic designer logic", that CS6 should likely work very smoothly on that platform. So, maybe a simple released "spec sheet" from those systems being used on AdobeTV, and any other (if any) add-ons, utilities, software, etc. on those systems might help people for the time being, to build an exact replica for their usage. I would also like to point out though, that "some" people posting here are being overly-optimistic in their expectations of a so-called "Dot-Zero" software release. And those stating that they are experienced from many years of using PS... haven't learned much IMHO It's common and "experienced" knowledge, that you NEVER EVER upgrade a system, whether OS or software packages, on a "Dot-Zero" release. You're simply volunteering to be a "Charlie" Tester. Anyway that's what I call them, as in Charlie Brown being continually flummoxed by Snoopy. Yes, someone has to be the Charlie, but certainly NOT some of you folks posting here from a production environment(!!!!) As for the simple "I'm just a simple graphic designer" and I have no idea what a 3rd Party Utility is, where my plug-ins or fonts are,  etc." people,... that's just plain laziness. Google is your friend in these cases, and might I add, your computer and it's software is a very complicated tool. Was... still is... and will be for some time to come. You might take some time to learn about your "career tool box" a bit more, just as any other professional must in order to have a job, as say a carpenter or a mechanic does. Saying software of this complexity should "just work out of the box" is just being thoroughly naive. As for Adobe fixing this, Noel... you said it in a little whisper on page 2, and I think this is the absolute truth and biggest problem of all: management is the problem at Adobe. The engineers WANT to put the brakes on, or tweak a release a little longer, but management wont allow them to, and pushes it out "as is" and worries about the problems later. Why? Because they can, due to their monopolizing the creative software market. Quite simple and logical deduction, wouldn't ya think? So now that I p***ed everyone off... Ciau, and have great CS6 day! ... View more

madameblossom wrote: DocPixel-BMW, you are a star! So helpful and patient and knowledgeable. I shall keep this info for when I upgrade to CS6 and Mountain Lion, so that I will know how to open my old Freehand files. <Blush!> Thank you... but no... not a star... just being helpful. Just one thing though, not sure why I will still need Snow Leopard (on a separate drive). If I keep CS 5.5 (as well as having CS 6) surely if I am on Mountain Lion I will be able to open my FH files using CS 5.5? Yes. You will be able to open your Freehand files on Mountain Lion using CS5.5. However, I'm a "cautious" type... possibly over cautious. I have always cloned a working system before upgrading any OS, incl. Windows. More than a few times it has saved me from unforeseeable problems or snags. Such as printer drivers not working (yet) or a "must-have" program not being available (FH for instance), etc. In the case of the "never to be used again Freehand", I consider that short-sighted. I don't know how many FH files you have, but I have north of 600,000 at last count. Any one of these may be needed at short notice.... and it never fails to follow Murphy's Law... that it is exactly that one file that won't translate/convert well when opening in AI. In that case, I open up the file in FH, do the ungroup everything trick and try again. If that doesn't work, than Copy Special from FH to AI and rebuild the file, or pull only the pieces I need and paste to AI. No Snow Leopard = No Freehand == embarrassing excuse to a customer. Can't afford that, or often the time it would take to recreate the job from scratch. So you see... just dumping out the "ability" to open a FH file natively, might not be the best choice, hence: keep a drive around with your last updated Snow Leopard and Freehand.... just in case Murphy's Law bites ya Thanks again for all you help. Your very welcome! ... View more

vickyjs-2007 wrote: Ok so just to be clear I don't have any old versions of illustrator at all - only Freehand MX,  I don't have spare Mac's lying around and I only get one chance at this upgrading thing and I just wondered if anyone had any simple advice. We have tried, wouldn't you agree? The macbook I'm using now will go to someone else in a few months and a new macbook pro will arrive for me this month along with Illustrator CS6 which I will have to get to grips with somehow and make the best of a bad situation! I'll have a month or so to salvage what I can in whatever formats seem most useful. I don't want to discourage you in the least(!).... however, giving yourself only a month to learn the intracacies and differences working with AI vs. FH... it's cutting it tight. Even experienced graphic pros have their difficulties and experience a learning curve of about 2-3 months from my experience training them. Real productivity comes at about 4-6 months, similar if not even better than FH for some things. My work is very simple illustration and layout for training resources, (eg. I'm not big on layers or complicated fills) and I really want to salvage illustrations which I often adapt and reuse in different forms, if text goes a bit wonky then the world won't end I'll just have to stock up on migraine tablets. Tip & Warning: You just might want to rethink "not being big on layers" when switching to AI. See below for re-using "vector-based" illustrations. I save important stuff as PDF files anyway but I would like to save freehand stuff also in a format that I can edit and pick bits off if I need them in the future. I'm not expecting a seamless transition. I am going to make the break from Freehand this time - I should have done it 5 years ago and didn't! That bolded line above, is what caused me to warn you about your learning expectations of a month. Breaking apart PDFs in AI... which I have a lot of experience with... is quite difficult if you don't know the ins-and-outs of AI and it's toolset and functions. Text is mostly easy... save your Aspirins for doing illustration conversions from a PDF! Just for interest / info in Freehand MX I can export documents in these formats: (some of these are a mystery to me!) Illustrator 1.1,88,3,5.5 and 7 ASCII text BMP DCS2 EPS FreeHand 10, 8,9 Generic EPS GIF JPEG Mac EPS Macromedia Flash (SWF) MS-DOS EPS PDF Photoshop 3 EPS, 4 & 5 RGB EPS, 5 PICT PNG Quark EPS RTF text Targa TIFF And I can save as a FreeHAnd Document, FH template or an Editable EPS Only the red items should be considered, just as you guessed in your first post. a) The rest are either platform or software - specific export formats not "normally" associated with AI (many you can "Place" but not edit with vector tools); b) PDFs have their own unique set of problems you will face (see above); and the rest will save as "pixel-based formats" and will no longer be "vector-based"; c) Again, you can "Place" many of them (TIF, JPG, etc.), but editing takes place in Photoshop for example. Considering that you're stuck with only 1 computer and 1 vector software package due to your employment... I'm thinking we're going to be hearing a lot from you in this forum in the near future. Not sure if that's good....? Although we enjoy your company As a consultant to the industry, and considering your level of knowledge at this point (just an assessment!-NOT derogatory!), I can't state enough that I think you're going to have a really tough time doing this as planned. Especially that you will be trying to learn a completely new OS (yes, it is different enough from SL to say this)... AND a completely different software program than FH. I am NOT saying that FH was better or worse... just stating the facts as I see them. Summary: I would tell any client, "No. Don't do this to yourself!" Consider one of the "alternatives". NOTE: I assume your Org is purchasing the CS6 - Design Standard package(?) If so when you find the time, you might want to look into doing your books with InDesign rather than Illustrator. Too many reasons to go into here... just watch some free AdobeTV or YouTube videos. You might also consider getting up to speed with the (subscription) training videos at Lynda.com. ... View more