BlueCat55
Community Beginner
BlueCat55
Community Beginner
Activity
‎Dec 29, 2024
03:03 PM
Addendum, it's quite possible that a lot of people printing this file will have older printers, older computers, and/or outdated software/OSs. Backwards compatibility is important for our target demographic.
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‎Dec 29, 2024
02:59 PM
Alright, thank you! And I'll definitely follow your advice for the blacks, since richer blacks will be a problem for ordinary paper. Do you have any recommendations for the best PDF standard/format to use in this case? (I need the profile, so PDF/X-1a is out. Ideally, I want to format this file so that it works well on home printers, but also wont be a total headache if someone does take it to a printer or copy shop.)
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‎Dec 29, 2024
11:37 AM
Hello! So right off the bat, I want to be clear that I understand this: the best way to choose a colour profile is ask your printer what they use. I understand why this matters. But this is not the situation I'm dealing with. I'm designing a document for an unknown destination. It's an educational PDF that will made publicly available for download on the internet, and people will print it themselves. Either on home printers, or printers available in their workplaces/ public libraries. Accessibility is the biggest priority- we need to assume people aren't using nice coated paper, that they can't/wont pay to print it professionally, and that they have no control over printer settings. So I need a decent CMYK profile that will work for ordinary, uncoated, white 8.5 X 11 US paper sheets. Something that might approximate the settings of a big lug copy-print-in-one printer in a library, and wont completely soak the paper with ink. (For reference, this is in Canada/US.) Any suggestions? Or in this case is it better to distribute the document in RGB? (And just be diligent about designing with colours that can be recreated in CMYK gamut?) Are consumer-level printers generally better at handling and managing RGB documents? ie. Is sending sRGB ICE61966-2.1 to a bunch of random destinations likely to cause fewer glaring colour problems than using a specific CMYK profile? Any advice appreciated. Thank you!
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‎Apr 28, 2020
08:22 AM
Ah, okay. That all makes sense- I'd been avoiding relying on soft proofs because of our uncalibrated system, but I think going forward I'm just going to push for this to be a priority. Thank you, everyone who's replied with their advice- it's been tremendously helpful! 😉
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‎Apr 27, 2020
04:36 PM
So if I understand- even in the absence of a specific printer profile, it's better to be editing images in RGB, then converting to a cmyk newsprint profile that at least has similar characteristics to my output device and given specs, rather than use the default working space. Greyscale images can be converted to greyscale using the black ink of my chosen newsprint profile, and then converted to cmyk in the final PDF/X-1a (I guess what gets me is the gamut differences between rgb and cmyk- I've always edited images in my chosen cmyk profile because it's the lowest common denominator, colour-wise. I've never wanted to fall in the trap of relying on bright, saturated rgb colours that can't be repoduced by my printer, so I never bothered with rgb for printed images and edited in cmyk from the start, to see what I have to work with. Yet I hear everyone saying it's best practise to work in rgb mode and convert afterwards. Can someone speak to this?) Tangent aside- I'm going to see if it's feasible for my workplace get some test prints done, to compare this workflow to what I've been using. (Not to mention keep hounding the printer for a profile. I imagine that trying to calibrate monitors for good soft-proofing will still be guesswork without this.)
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‎Apr 27, 2020
01:29 PM
"if you use a profile that is designed for the destination press, you shouldn’t have to manually compensate because the assigned profile affects the preview." "Black Ink-US Web Coated assumes less dot gain, so the same output values display as lighter values" Just to clarify, I wasn't compensating to create an accurate preview- my intent was to lighten midtones and improve contrast so that the image might print better regardless of dot gain. ie. With no profile I don't know how much dot gain there'll be. But regardless, I figured that with any amount of dot gain, lightened midtones and heightened contrast will print more readable than a flat image with fewer tonal values. But with regards to grey soft-proofing, am I correct then that Photoshop's proof is showing what the absolute k values will look like after print, in dot gain conditions simulated by the profile? If the printer will not provide a CMYK profile, but is expecting you to make CMYK conversions (PDF/X-1a) you are shooting in the dark for both CMYK and Gray color management. Unfortunatley this is the case. I've had to guess- but I've been lucky in that our first print job turned out well. So I've stuck with the workflow for that first project ever since. ...you would not want to convert to the default US Web Coated SWOP, and try to compensate by color correcting the numbers. At the very least you would have a total ink problem—SWOP’s 300% vs SNAP’s 220% They did give me an ink limit- 240% for 4-colour content and 140% for 2-colour content. (Is this kind of split limit normal?) To get colour images under this limit, I have been editing them in Photoshop with levels/curves/channel mixers + Info Panel, and then checking TAC for the whole image in Acrobat or InDesign. It's time consuming, but seems to work. I'm working in US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 but never hit 300% simply because I've edited those colours out. (Unless I'm missing the point- are you saying that a given ink coverage in two different profiles entails a different, absolute volume of ink in each process being simulated? ie. is 220% in SWOP a heavier ink volume than 220% in SNAP?) What cmyk profile would you recommend using in this situation? With this target TAC, is it better to use a profile that's over or under?
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‎Apr 27, 2020
12:55 PM
Black Ink-US Web Coated assumes less dot gain, so the same output values display as lighter values: Am I correct then that Photoshop's soft-proof is approximating what the absolute k values will look like after they've printed and dot gain has occured? (As opposed to visualizing the degree of lightening/compensation built into the profile before printing.) If the printer will not provide a CMYK profile, but is expecting you to make CMYK conversions (PDF/X-1a) you are shooting in the dark for both CMYK and Gray color management. Unfortunately this is the case. We've got limited resources to begin with, and without a profile I've just had to guess. We've been lucky in that the first things sent to print turned out well, so I've stuck with that workflow since. ...you would not want to convert to the default US Web Coated SWOP, and try to compensate by color correcting the numbers. At the very least you would have a total ink problem—SWOP’s 300% vs SNAP’s 220% They did give me a total area coverage, which is 240% for 4 colour content and 140% for 2 colour content. (Is this kind of split TAC normal?) I have been manually editing colour images in Photoshop, using levels, curves, and channel mixers to get colours under this limit and checking them with Acrobat Output Preview/ InDesign's Separations Preview (I don't know of an equivalent photoshop feature that displays full-image ink levels) It's time-consuming, but seems to work, even though I'm working in US Web Coated (SWOP) v2. In this situation, what cmyk profile would you recommend working in? Would it still be better to choose a profile with a higher-than-specified ink limit and correct heavy colours, rather than choose a lighter profile and make all your darks lighter than necessary?
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‎Apr 27, 2020
10:07 AM
In reply to both, this is a cold web offset press and we're printing on newsprint. Their specs are at least partially based on SNAP. The printer told me 25% dot gain, and PDF/X-1a, but didn't give a profile. (They're a large company too- it's strange) My manager told me that in the past we'd had problems with images coming out too dark. I don't know what the previous workflow was, but I do know that when we work in US Web Coated (SWOP) v2, manually edit greyscale images in Photoshop before placing (bring up midtones, heighten contrast), and place/export them in the workflow I described, they generally come out looking good. So I've been doing something similar to what you suggested, @Bob_Hallam1- just not in any fixed, quantified way. So would I be best off taking those images that did turn out well, and basing all future curve/levels edits on those ones? (We aren't set up for reliable soft-proofing. The output happens to match our screens decently, but a) we can't calibrate them and b) without a profile it guess wouldn't be much use anyways.)
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‎Apr 25, 2020
06:23 PM
1 Upvote
I have a question about managing dot gain in greyscale images in a CMYK workflow. I have an RGB image that's superficially greyscale (as in, it looks like grey tones, even though it's made of rgb values). It will be placed in InD in a document that has some colour pages/images, and some black and white. The document will be exported as a PDF/X-1a with a cmyk output intent. The image in question (plus the rest of the b&w content) has to print in k black only, so I convert it to Greyscale mode in PS, adjusting levels as desired, then place it in InD, then export to PDF- in Acrobat's Output Preview, the separations read as k-values only for the image. So far so good. The question: 1) My printer says to compensate for 25% dot gain on all images. In general, can mixed b&w and colour content in the same pdf be adequately compensated for with a single destination profile/output intent? (In this case, everything is being treated like cmyk, so will the cmyk output profile/intent be sufficient for the dot gain in the greyscale images that only have k values? Or do images using just k dots versus all four colour dots require different compensation curves, even if they're in the same "mode"?) 2) If not, where in the process can I apply a dot gain compensation to the greyscale images? I assume embedding a profile would be useless, as the PDF/X-1a conversion will strip it. 3) It's worth mentioning that, for some reason, my printer did not supply me with a profile to use, even when directly asked. I'm assuming that without a specific printing profile, the 25% dot gain instruction is actually useless? (I've just picked US Web Coated SWOP v2 as my workflow profile, since its Adobe's the standard working space and stuff does indeed come off the press looking good when we use it. But that still brings me back to 1)- is US Web Coated SWOP v2, as a cmyk output intent, sufficient for both cmyk and k only dot gain?) Any clarification greatly appreciated!
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‎Apr 25, 2020
12:39 PM
1 Upvote
"From what you've said, it seems I've been doing the right thing by creating gresycale images, placing them in InDesign, and then exporting with my desired output intent. Maybe I'm fundamentally confused about how greyscale vs cmyk colour data are treated within the same file- if I understand correctly, a PDF/X-1a can contain greyscale and cmyk data, but only has one output intent. If the output intent is a cmyk profile, and you export the (InDesign) file with "Preserve Numbers", does that mean that k values from a greyscale image will be mapped to the black plate by default in the pdf?" Thank you!!! This is what I was looking for- and this appears to answer the other question that I had too.
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‎Apr 25, 2020
11:53 AM
c_pfaffenbichler, can you describe to me in a little more detail how to do this? I've tried copy/pasting between channels, but couldn't get it to work- I feel like there's some picky setting or technical detail that I'm missing. Also, greyscale images aren't an issue. I'm just curious if there's any way to use Photoshop to make a CMYK mode image containing only K data, (that looks good).
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‎Apr 14, 2020
04:46 PM
1 Upvote
Hello! I have an image that I need to prepare in Photoshop for an offset printing workflow. It's a black and white image, currently rendered in 4 colour greys and blacks, and I need to be able to edit/convert it so that the image is still in cmyk mode, but only contains data on the black plate, with the entire image made up of k values. I've tried converting to greyscale and back to cmyk, in hopes of discarding the cmy data, but bringing the image back into cmyk mode just re-separates the image onto all four plates. I've also tried forcing the image to the black plate with the Channel Mixer monochrome settings- it does work, but the quality of the image suffers enough that it doesn't seem worth it. So far, my preferred method has been a workaround with InDesign. I've found that if I convert the image to greyscale, place it in InDesign, and export the indd file as a PDFx-1a with US Web Coated SWOP v2 output intent, (part of my workflow setup) the resulting image in the PDF only contains k values. (According to Acrobat's output preview). This has worked in our workflow so far, but I want to know if there's a better way to do this in Photoshop. I'd be surprised if you couldn't create a cmyk image containing only k black ... unless it's good practice to just use Acrobat or another program for converting black and white images like this. I'd appreciate any input!
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‎Jun 08, 2018
07:15 PM
Ahh- that makes sense. I didn't realize that the preview was RGB. Strangely though, the numbers were still off even after I embedded the image. I've since tried this again with another PSD (different from the original file I was working with). It contains, among other colours, a rich black, 50,50,50,100, which, after embedding in Illustrator, samples as 49.8, 49.8, 49.8, 100. Certainly a lot closer than what the RGB preview spits out (when linked), but still not right. I've tried placing this PSD in a new document 4 times, each time using a different AI CMYK colour management policy, and the results are the same. (This new PSD I've tested differs from the original in that it has no embedded ICC profile. But the original file, with a profile, did not embed accurately either when I first tried.) Not sure what that's about. Regardless, the next time I need to place external files in AI, I'll be relying on Acrobat to check the colours.
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‎Jun 08, 2018
05:59 PM
Thank you! I didn't realize CMYK data could be treated that way (indexed)- that clears things up significantly.
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‎Jun 06, 2018
01:19 PM
Hello! I'm new-ish at using Acrobat, and have a question about some terminology/colour workflow. I'm trying to determine whether an image in my PDF contains an embedded ICC profile. When I open the Print Production >> Output Preview for my PDF, take a look at the Object Inspector, and click on the image in question, the data entry for Colour Space reads "Device CMYK". Does this mean that the image has no embedded CMYK profile, and that, assuming I don't assign anything else to it, it's existing colour numbers would end up just being plotted in the destination profile of the printer? Conversely, I have a different PDF with an image whose Colour Space data reads "Indexed Device CMYK"- does this indicate an embedded profile? Thanks!
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‎May 29, 2018
11:13 AM
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It worked! I kept my AI CMYK Colour Management set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles). I placed/linked the PSD into Illustrator, added my bleed, and then saved it as a PDF with "No conversion" and "Don't Include Profiles" in my Output settings. (I assumed that was what you meant by preserve colours? Since I'm thinking that this would just keep the raw numbers with no profile interpretation? Is this correct?) Then I previewed the Output in Acrobat, under U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 (my original PSD colour profile), and- hooray!- all of my colours are showing the correct breakdown that I intended. Saved as a PDF-X1a for U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2. So the colour data appears to be correct for the intended end-use of my final output PDF- unless you see any calamitous errors in what I did? As an aside, I'm curious as to why the Illustrator eyedropper didn't properly sample the colour breakdown- is this just a bug?
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‎May 28, 2018
02:02 PM
I am trying to prepare print-ready files for a poster, according to my printer's specifications. The poster was originally created in Photoshop. However, because my printer wants a PDF with a specified bleed, I'm trying to transfer the artwork into Illustrator so I can set up print-ready files with bleed marks. My original PS file is in working CMYK, and so is the receiving AI file I've set up to receive it. However, I cannot seem to move the Photoshop artwork into Illustrator without the CMYK values for all colours changing. I have tried drag-and-drop, saving the artwork as a TIFF and as a PSD and opening it in AI, saving it as an Adobe PDF and opening it in AI, and both linking and embedding the artwork into AI as an image, and nothing has worked. As an example- in the PS file, all of the text on the poster is 100%K black. But when I move it into the illustrator file, in the exact same colour space, it changes to a strange breakdown of rich black full of decimal values. This is happening with all of my colours- the CMYK numbers are changing to a strange set of decimal values. Some techincal details: The original poster file in Photoshop is in working CMYK, U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 8bpc. The artwork has been flattened into a single layer. Before flattening, I edited the CMYK breakdown/total ink coverage of my colours with a Channel Mixer adjustment layer, but never touched CMYK settings for the actual document. The receiving Illustrator file, into which I'm trying to move the artwork, is also working CMYK, U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2. My Colour Management Policy in AI, for CMYK, is set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles). (I also tried with it set to Preserve Embedded Profile, and it didn't work either.) I'm viewing the colour separations in PS using the Info Panel. I'm viewing the colour separations in AI using the eyedropper/colour panel. The version of PS I'm running is CS5. The version of AI I'm running is CS4. (long story. I have an old, patchwork suite.) Any ideas why the CMYK numbers won't stay the same between programs, if the working colour space of both files is the same? Could it be an issue with the "Embed ICC profile" option when saving the PS document? (In the cases where I tried saving and opening it?) I've heard that the eyedropper in AI can be funny sometimes- is my AI eyedropper/colour panel simply not displaying the correct numbers? Could it be a bug resulting from trying to use two different versions of Adobe Programs? (For the record, I've moved things from PS CS5 to AI CS4 before and never had a colour conversion problem before this. So could I be looking at a program corruption somewhere?) Please help! I'm at my wits end as to why this should be happening.
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