We Need Better Feedback From the Premiere Pro Team in Bug Reports!

[default9ytzb7vmpw4l]

The silence is deafening...

Mod note: This OT post was branched from a bug report about the Premiere Pro Team's lack of a response to a User Voice bug report about "fixing" the Import and Export Mode UIs. Thanks for understanding.

[R Neil Haugen]

Silence on what specifically?

I'd like the ability to queue to Me via keyboard shortcut. Which at times would be very handy.

What do you want different? And just don't say "the old window" ... what specific actions do you want to do in order?

I will most happily admit that new Export page as-shipped is PAINFUL. Yup, no question.

But for most purposes, once one goes through and un-stars all the presets one won't use, creates detailed presets one will use ... this becomes a non-issue.

So try that, as it takes maybe 10 or 15 minutes spent one day, after which you don't have to deal with the clickiness of the new window hardly ever.

And save your sanity.

Neil

[default9ytzb7vmpw4l]

I don't think Adobe understand what they have done by ignoring those threads. Literally EVERYONE I have talked to is dumping Adobe because of that and a multitude of other problems. Wouldn't you think Adobe would fix the problem?

[R Neil Haugen]

Let's take a look at your angst from a couple different directions.

First, as a publicly traded company, by legal requirements, they never, EVER give a roadmap for what's coming. Until it's out in the public beta.

Are they alone in this?

NO.

Neither does BlackMagic or Avid or Apple.

So your 'demand' for an explanation is on its face never happening. With ANY company, not just Adobe. So anywhere you go, you will get the identical behavior you're claiming on wanting to "leave Adobe" over.

As someone who uses BM's Resolve on a daily basis, and works for/with/teaches pro colorists based in that app, I'm on the BM forums daily. They also have threads with people ticked off because of issues that they will not publicly address.

As they follow the exact same process as the Adobe company: users learn what's coming in public betas, never ever anywhere else.

Avid ... well, it's a well built app in general, but changes there have according to friends that use it made molasses in the fridge look fluid & fast-moving. And again, you know a change is coming when it "lands".

So ... where you gonna go?

Second, as noted in many other places, there are two rather simple ways to get around the annoyance of the Export "page".

You clearly prefer Angst. Ah well, what can anyone do?

Third ... is "Adobe" losing users over this? Well gee ... the daily number of users has grown dramatically over the last couple years, so that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? So across the user base, apparently far fewer agree with you than you seem to think. And yea, they've done things I thought stupid also. That didn't seem to bother most other users.

Which ... is darn annoying, granted.

Neil

[default9ytzb7vmpw4l]

I have also never been personally disrespected by Blackmagic employees. While I've been lied to, disrespected, hung up on, stood up 10 TIMES for customer service calls. 

[default9ytzb7vmpw4l]

I work in the industry. I'm not an idiot. Everyone I talked to in the music industry, youtube, and my side projects have been switching to Resolve. Clients literally have been requesting Resolve. And they all say the same thing. Premiere is slow, buggy, and crashes way too much. So not sure what numbers you're looking at....

Mod note: Edited for content. Please do not attack fellow editors in the thread.

[default9ytzb7vmpw4l]

These are all different editors that have recently switched to Resolve. This is basically all I ever hear. I have never heard any editor say anything nice about Premiere.

Mod note: Edited for content. Please do not post photos containing profanity. That is not allowed according to Adobe Community Guidelines. Text was edited for context.

[R Neil Haugen]

You can post forum complaints 'till the cows come home. Included in there you'll find a whole bunch of mine too!

Because yes, I've been rather vociferous over quite a few things "here" that I didn't appreciate.

Calling it "research" seems a bit of a stretch however.

The hard data of user numbers is far more useful to a mega-corp like Adobe. And they have many thousands of people studying such metrics across all the many applications they create. So I think they wouldn't find your sample useful. (They've probably already quantified every post you can dig up, believe me ... )

Neither Adobe on this, nor BlackMagic on so many questions on their forums, is going to say squat on many things like unto this. Period.

Yes, we users can post that we'd like X changed. I heartily suggest doing so, always have, always will.

Personally, I've been told that a bug involving multiple instances of Lumetri on a clip and control panels will probably never ever be fixed. In person. Yea, that's a big pain point for me. But realistically, I can still do a ton more in Pr with an Elements panel than in Resolve. So ... it's all relative, you know?

And at that point, get on with Life. With whatever tool you find useful.

Neil

[R Neil Haugen]

Interesting you go to Resolve ... which hath issues for some users also. Any look at the BM forums gets that.

Such as all the colorists that stayed on 15 when 16 came out, and never actually used any 16.x version because on their rig it blipped somehow. Yea, I worked with some of those. Went from a late 15.x version to around 17.2.

But other users were working in the 16.x versions and getting great performance.

With 18 ... came I think it was 18.1, which noted colorist MTO ... Mark Todd Osborne ... posted about that nearly bricking his machine, so he had to uninstall and revert for a usable version. As did others.

Every colorist based in Resolve I know has a long list of bugs & poor UI/setup choices that they've wanted fixed, communicated to BM for YEARS about, but are still there. It's a fascinating discussion when at NAB they get into comparing their lists.

And finally, the price ... well, like DUH!!!!! .... there's a painfully obvious reason that Resolve has a 'free' version and the one-time paid version.

In case you haven't noticed, Resolve exists totally as a loss leader.

Adobe makes money by selling the use of software. One model.

BlackMagic makes money by selling hardware. A different and equally valid model.

And Resolve exists simply to get you to buy BM hardware. They're very clear about this too, including in their forums.

They know that mapping for other hardware used with Resolve is only allowed by what simple few mappings the BM devs allow. Other hardware is nearly crippled, such as Tangent, Monogram, and other company hardware.

And when pressed, they do say that will NEVER EVER change. Without apology whatever.

Because they want you to spend a slot of cash on several different BM bits of kit.

And further, that BM kit for Resolve only works in Resolve. Their panels, keyboards, the cut tool ... do not work with any other app, ONLY Resolve.

By intention and stated purpose.

So ... are they "mean", or simply, doing what they choose to make money as they wist?

I understand the different profit model, which irritates me a bit. But that is their choice. And I've got enough BM kit to have several Resolve licenses sitting in a drawer here. And yes, I used one to get the Studio version and work with that daily.

But at least as of this time, I've no interest in buying any BM desktop Resolve kit. My Tangent Elements panel does enough for what I need in Resolve. Even though they intentionally limit it to only a few things on the Color page.

While in "Adobe", it's an incredible tool that I have total control over mapping. And can use not only in color, but for audio mixing, resizing/positioning/rotating any screen element, all sorts of things.

If you prefer Resolve, as many of my good friends do, USE IT. Forget 'loyalty' to a company, they're all going to do fine without you or me.

Neil

[Oğulcan Tokar]

This is so far the most "stretched" answer you made Neil not gonna lie. You literally took a problem from literally 2 version ago which has been fixed, and later you go on and explain how some very advanced colorist had issues with his advanced problems on a minor patch. However the "millions" of user you keep bragging about on Premiere, will literally won't have that extremely specific issue at all, while he is literally talking about problems like completely basic things. 

"And Resolve exists simply to get you to buy BM hardware. They're very clear about this too, including in their forums."

This is also very stretched and you keep bringing it up however, once again millions of users you keep brining up on Premiere literally just uses keyboard and mouse, so not an issue either. If you want a professional environment with a stable software and "hardware" there is no harm in buying it, isn't resolve best for coloring anyway?

Also I'm not saying BM is a guardian angel or anything, in my opinion they are both annoying companies on how they handle things. However as "hardware selling" company BM literally provides a "better" software with very innovative solutions with literally every patch, not to mention It doesn't force you to a subscription model and anyone can use it for basic editing for free. I'm so enjoying the new audio updates not gonna lie, I'm very bad with audio, and right now it's just one click, it is just amazing, but Premiere Pro users can render shape strokes, that's W.

" they're all going to do fine without you or me."

You have lost that tiny shred of little respect I had for you with that sentence right there. People like you are the reason why we can't have nice things while we pay for it with our hard earned money. You might be fine with your pipeline, however issues are there. You are just unable to understand it, It took you millions of parapgraphs to even comprehend how bad the new export window is. If you agree just say you agree and move on, If you don't, please give an actual excuse rather than making things up or bringing a problem that existed 4 years ago for some advanced user.

Things change, stop blocking the river. 

[R Neil Haugen]

You misunderstand so many of my comments ... going places I certainly don't. It seems you look for motives, then respond to your perceived motives, rather than just reading my words. Read the words, literally. Forget assigning motives, you're completely offbase when you do.

Especially on the they'll get fine without us. That's just reality, dude! I push like crazy on all sort of things ... some of which affect me, many of which affect others so I argue for them.

DAILY.

And I've been able, at times, to help get things done. When that happens, it's a joy.

But at the same time, I'm totally practical. We can argue all we want for something, but each of us is just one data point from a very, very large pool. Like when the program manager says ... that thing about the color panels & Lumetri instances you keep on about, well ... there just aren't enough affected & with everything else we've got going, it ain't gonna get time.

Numbers. Numbers matter. More numbers, more importance is applied to things. Reality

So even though I know most of the program managers and have talked in person, I'm still ... just one data point. That's reality.

If you and I and fifty other editors posted a statement we're leaving, and stopped subscribing, would that affect anything whatsoever? Nope.

Because that's such a small number it's not relevant to any business decisions unless a TON of other people clearly follow. And that chance ain't great, I gotta tell you.

And that would be the same for either BM or the A folks.

I push for changes daily, for many things ... most of which don't affect me. I tend to be rather openly critical, more so than many. And I'm also openly critical when meeting people at things such as NAB. But I temper that with an understanding of reality.

Are some things screwed up? Yes. Are some hammered by that? Oh yes, and right now, it's messy out there for some number of users. Nasty.

Are most working without troubles? Yea, that too.

Both are part of Reality. And I have no clue why understanding reality is somehow taken as meaning I'm working against getting things fixed.

Neil

[Oğulcan Tokar]

"You misunderstand so many of my comments ... "

I don't think I did Neil, your answers are pretty straight forward. Which is good. I'm just saying you are stretching the context to make your point, and use insanely rare & advanced problems to support it, while those issues won't even exist for %99 of the users. Resolve not having Dynamic Link (Also DL itself is why every editor I know especially in Youtube field stays with Premiere.) is a million times greater argument than BM forcing you to use a hardware, or random professional's issue on 2 major versions ago.

 
The thing is all people and I screaming here for are absolutely basic things that hasn't been changed/fixed in 20 years while you are trying to find "complicated" problems for both yourself and people you know in your field to report to Adobe or make your point, however upon seeing the lack of understanding how a modern application should be, you and people like you in the field should be the last person to even talk about, give feedbacks for this application. I'm not saying anything related to your or their work, however just because you play a game a lot, it doesn't make you game designer, it's same here.

You are just unable to "understand" -actually no not even understand- you can't even IMAGINE the improvements even people like me are screaming you with screenshots from other applications. I've showed you an amazing feature from Blender a while ago, you thought it was a "hotkey" manager, while I said It wasn't in the same sentence. So no I refuse to believe you do anything about these other than fighting against it.

To give credit I've seen Warren give even more worse examples to support his points like talking about "ray-tracing in 30 years ago". My favorite was "Photoshop won an Oscar, so Adobe must be doing something right" I'm pretty sure he doesn't even have any idea how many custom tools those studios who won that Oscar makes, to make Photoshop "usable" in a professional studio environment. You can't even export a .jpg from photoshop without dealing with 3-4 different dialog windows. Go ahead, try.

I always questioned the decision making behind the Premiere not gonna lie. It has "Pro" in it's name, Devs takes feedbacks and works with pros as well (heard), however updates it got for the last 15+ years are %85 more geared towards starters and casual editors. Even the so "called" new import/export window that made some professional's job "easier" made those "millions of users" angry, It's even bad for casual editors. By the way I refuse the accept in any way it made their job faster, whatever they do I can do faster without that screen. I just think they are just the same people, who likes seeing the "Keyboard" on hotkey manager, fancy, easy on eyes, but not a smart or modern solution for managing hotkeys & functions. Premiere at this point needs a toggle for old people. Photoshop is even worse at this.

Can Adobe decide which side they are on? And honestly supporting both is also very viable and milion times better option, which is what Resolve does, sorry for that colorist friend, but It is absolutely going beautiful. Every update, both sides get a good chunk of updates.

Autodesk is also a very good example. Maya is the most used application by the animation studios, and Autodesk simply doesn't even care for the rest and gives them middle finger, they are straight forward with this, they just simply gear it towards those studios, and those studios still make insane amount of custom tools for Maya. Which makes it harder for them to switch to other 3D applications after that initial investment. However NLE apps are child play to learn compared to a 3D application. After couple of days any editor should be able to make the switch and start working on the actual art rather than fighting the application.

Even with their thousands/milions of $ of worth of custom tools, there are studios making the switch from Maya to Blender. These applications are bazillion times more complicated than Premiere. So It's not hard to imagine millions of people who edits youtube videos to make the switch. 

[R Neil Haugen]

Let's start with a with a few direct statements:

1) That new import/export page was apparently a corporate type request, as the use-case given for it is clearly newsrooms. NOT Youtube. And for that work ... you gotta do several quick projects, someone's given you a folder of assets ... and each project needs three different length edits ... you got an hour ... yea, I can see that working great.

Second with that change, from the devs viewpoint, thinking in that marvelously unique way the engineering mind seems to work ... they see that they only made a minor "physical" change to the program. There's more visual change than functional change.

All previous functional behavior is still there.

And they've been kinda weirded out some people got so caught up with the visual change they didn't even notice that their old workflow was still there untouched. Well, I don't actually totally agree with the devs ... it sure wasn't obvious the 'old' way was still there! ... but yea, they do have a point there.

2) The supposed lack of any main fixes or updates has to be figured from a very narrow workflow or point of view. They've added tools that have made a lot of users ... of all types ... workflows faster, from updgrade to the EGP/mogrts setup, that wondrous transcription system, audio remix ... a number of other things.

They've also fixed a lot of bugs. I'll give them that ... though I'll also grouse at them that there were SO FREAKING MANY to start with! And some more buggy/odd things have come in with the new bits of code ... they've been working on going throuh all the DVA apps and completely rewriting the code, getting things modernised. Which isn't "obvious" to the user for sure, takes a TON of time, and yea, get's some bugs introduced itself.

But I am glad they've finally been updating these apps. Long overdue.

3) Next, the entire color handling of Premiere has been dumped and rebuilt. And I do mean, the entire color handling/pipeline. Which was needed ... that old Rec709 based system was just antiquated.

Now ... they've not done a "perfect" job about introducing the new system, and I've been happy to blast them for that. I was working on a virtual MAX presentation built around the 22.x build public beta, assuming it would be released (as is the new custom) during MAX. As it was.

My main work is clearly color. And I was using several formats/codecs in a single project to demonstrate managing such things. Red, Sony log, Mavic drone, Panny DSLR, a couple other things.

Then they dropped the release build ... and the underlying color had changed including all defaults! Working from the public beta, I'd had no clue. THAT ... was a nasty piece here on the forum, and yea, they really stepped into that one!

I've been pushing for a unified color management dialog/system ala EGP and ESP ... and have been told my request is "in development". Which naturally only means they are testing the idea, no guarantee they're going to actually do it, and if they do, when.

But we needed that off the beginning, and it's been a .... can't use the "proper" words on the forum ... darn hard slog with the implementation they did use. Which was a partial implementation, without prior clear warning even to their ACP group, with the new color management controls spread all over the freaking app in bits & pieces.

With completely different default behaviors for most log & RAW media! What a freaking mess. And yes, I've been that blunt in online meetings & emails & messages and in person at NAB.

That doesn't sound too much like defending them to myself, but then, everyone's mileage always differs.

They needed to make the change. But the implementation bit the big one pretty hard.

We're finally getting out of that, as in the public beta they've got a LOT of log media formats handled adequately. It will be a different workflow for many heavy users, but ... it will have better usability across color spaces too. Finally. And sometime, they'll release that for the shipping version.

But that is another huge project being worked through.

4) I don't agree that everything in Resolve-world is going peachy all the time. I work in it, you know? With and in communication with a lot of colorists, the major teachers of pro color work, right? And I'm also on the BM forums daily.

The number of buggy things, mismatch issues between 'pages', have gone up dramatically since around 14. I knew of facilities that never used 15, as in their shop, none were stable enough/better enough to move from 14. And 18 ... from Mark Todd Osborne to Volpatto to whomever ... there've been builds that simply were a mess for some of their major users.

Why? My guess is again, trying to be all for all. I'm not sure how ... wise ... that goal is.

Baselight is staying with the Olde Enchanted Model ... you buy the computer from them for a TON of cash, pay a yearly license, and never every add any apps to it!

BUT ... you get a rock-stable system and high-end grading app. I know a few people that have left Resolve for Baselight, and in every case, it's been a big and positive move for them and their clients. I know of others considering it.

And for both Resolve and the Adobe apps, the user variability across the user base at this time is nutso. THAT is incredibly frustrating.

Many users for both are getting the best performance they've ever gotten. (We rarely hear anything from those, because ... why waste their time?).

And some for both are getting weird/odd/buggy behaviors. Maddening behaviors.

A couple years ago, on either forum, it was pretty easy to help troubleshoot an issue. What's a specific description of the problem, list your OS/hardware in detail ... here's three probably fixes in order of likelihood. One of those would work.

Now? Holy Moly ... some things you can still do that with, but so many others ... like the freaking can't stop playback thing ... are so divorced from any 'basic' troubleshooting process as to drive you nuts.

Yea, the devs for both BM and Adobe need to sort those, but jeepers ... that's weird stuff.

And looking at say the percentages of 'films' submitted from Cannes to Sundance/whatever that have been cut in Avid, Resolve, and PrPro ... PrPro is the simple majority these days. It wasn't four years ago. And it's used in a fair number of "Hollywood" TV/streaming shows, and full-length movies. More than in the past.

Over the last three years, it's been amazing to hear the "all REAL pros are leaving" mantra as at the same time, the numbers of films & shows using Pr has gone up in reality.

So ... the claim that only 'casual' users have  benefitted is bonkers.

Is it perfect? Oh Hades, NO!

Do we users need to call out the devs on things? Oh Hades Yes! And will always need to do so from my experience.

And any competition from Avid, Resolve, Maya, Nuke Baselight, whatever  ... is most welcome. As a user, we can only benefit in the end.

Neil

[Oğulcan Tokar]

Second with that change, from the devs viewpoint, thinking in that marvelously unique way the engineering mind seems to work ... they see that they only made a minor "physical" change to the program. There's more visual change than functional change.

All previous functional behavior is still there.

By @R Neil Haugen

This is the foundation of why we can't agree on most of the things, you are comparing things with their end result, without taking the person who is doing "how" and their brain aneriousm while doing it, because it is designed/made by people who doesn't know anything about UI & UX design for people who are exact same. Even I can easily find another million ways that would be beneficial to both corporate editors, and everyone in the world. I even made a export screen for my use already using CEP. Adobe just blindly followed their advice/request to make them happy in my opinion. Your example is very bad by the way, and not how I would have handled it. 

I could change your color tools millions of ways, and make you click 10 times for something you could do with 1 click back then and call it "previous functional behavior is still there." and try to justify it because some random Korean TV studio requested me to do it like that. This is what Adobe did.

And just to be clear you make any change on something and make it %0.0000000001 more effort, that is a change in the UX and behavior that I'm gonna b. about, till they understand it.

It is also not right thing to try to make %1 of the users happy with a change that makes %99 of the rest unhappy. It is just very bad decision making in my opinion. So many wasted development days... Probably months. For a change hated by everyone. 

2) The supposed lack of any main fixes or updates has to be figured from a very narrow workflow or point of view. They've added tools that have made a lot of users ... of all types ... workflows faster, from updgrade to the EGP/mogrts setup, that wondrous transcription system, audio remix ... a number of other things.

They've also fixed a lot of bugs. I'll give them that ... though I'll also grouse at them that there were SO FREAKING MANY to start with! And some more buggy/odd things have come in with the new bits of code ... they've been working on going throuh all the DVA apps and completely rewriting the code, getting things modernised. Which isn't "obvious" to the user for sure, takes a TON of time, and yea, get's some bugs introduced itself.

But I am glad they've finally been updating these apps. Long overdue.

By @R Neil Haugen

I get your point, however none of these "new features" makes anyone editing workflow faster. Sure .mogrt and transcription is nice, but they literally made Import & Export workflow slower for everyone except that %1.

"rewriting the code, getting things modernised. Which isn't "obvious" to the user for sure, takes a TON of time, and yea, get's some bugs introduced itself.

But I am glad they've finally been updating these apps. Long overdue."

I'm very aware of how very beneficial it would be when they update things that are in the background, of course, however, we are not getting better performance (even if you do, that's probably due to hardware, not Adobe's optimizations), we are not getting better user experience. Premiere feels and looks the same as 15 years ago. Our current phones, tvs, cars doesn't look and works same as 15 years ago. Things change. And Premiere needs major changes. UI is definitely one of them.

3) Next, the entire color handling of Premiere has been dumped and rebuilt. And I do mean, the entire color handling/pipeline. Which was needed ... that old Rec709 based system was just antiquated.

By @R Neil Haugen

Cool, however doesn't help or doesn't bring anything to our convo here. I'm telling you Entire Premiere UI is antiquated. Lumetri Color panel is literally just a lumetri copy that applies and links itself to Lumetri Effect, LOL. 

Also agree on that they are very bad showing at things they changed. Look at this beatiful patch notes from Blender. This is how it should be. 

Blender 3.4 Release 

And even better, if you want even more detailed and exact notes on what changed, you also have that.

https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/3.5

And this whole process is automated. Not manual. It's just beautiful.

And looking at say the percentages of 'films' submitted from Cannes to Sundance/whatever that have been cut in Avid, Resolve, and PrPro ... PrPro is the simple majority these days. It wasn't four years ago. And it's used in a fair number of "Hollywood" TV/streaming shows, and full-length movies. More than in the past.

Over the last three years, it's been amazing to hear the "all REAL pros are leaving" mantra as at the same time, the numbers of films & shows using Pr has gone up in reality.

So ... the claim that only 'casual' users have  benefitted is bonkers.

Is it perfect? Oh Hades, NO!

By @R Neil Haugen

And looking at say the percentages of 'films' submitted from Cannes to Sundance/whatever that have been cut in Avid, Resolve, and PrPro ... PrPro is the simple majority these days. It wasn't four years ago.

What I said was, Premiere has more users that specilizes in Youtube Tiktok etc social media a lot more than "movies". And trust me when I say they work million times different than you and "film editors?" And I'm absolutely sure they make the majority of the Premiere Pro users, not film editors. (I'm not even gonna mention who enjoys that Import screen, I just ignore that they exist.)

And also people do not buy Premiere. People and studios pay for Adobe Creative Cloud which already has a video editor in it, which works great with their other applications in sync. Maybe that's real reason here and not Premiere being a good editor uh? Because sadly it is not. Everyone who tries to switch to Resolve comes back just for this reason, not because of the Bugs that you and other pros encounter. 

Over the last three years, it's been amazing to hear the "all REAL pros are leaving" mantra as at the same time, the numbers of films & shows using Pr has gone up in reality.

Again I think you should read my sentence where I mention specificaly not pro people, as they are the majority. "So It's not hard to imagine millions of people who edits youtube videos to make the switch. " 

It's also up more than you think due to how social media evolved. Weird comparision but no one thought DOTA would die, here we are playing League while waiting for the render.

So ... the claim that only 'casual' users have  benefitted is bonkers.

Casual users don't even bother to mention their problems like you and me, hell I'm a pro and never talked or mentioned my problems. There is just no alternative for most people that can replace dynamic link or just they don't know or want to learn the alternatives.

"Do we users need to call out the devs on things? Oh Hades Yes! And will always need to do so from my experience.

And any competition from Avid, Resolve, Maya, Nuke Baselight, whatever  ... is most welcome. As a user, we can only benefit in the end."

Then why are you blocking people or even me when I tell you that UI is absolutely old and bad? Things I would do to that UI would do nothing but saving you hours if not days & months. I have learnt and wasted at least 2 years, even lost some of my creativity during because I didn't want to use even the old export UI, and made it literally one click after learning programming. Yet you write paragraphs explaning how things were 10 years ago as if I should appreciate adobe for what we have now. People have different tolerances. 

I agree with competition, I just really hope there will be a open-source application like Blender in the future.

Also completely side note, While writing this, I'm currently working on project for game trailer, we are using Shadowplay for game captures which results with 2K resolution 120K bitrate H264 files. I have multiple effects (heavy effects like RSMB), speedramps, color grading even compositing on some. Resolve just simply does not care, I just do not feel the need for transcoding at all.

[R Neil Haugen]

First, in no way am I "blocking" anything from you, and to me, that's such a bizarre concept ... I totally don't get it. As I can't see how your comments "block" anything from me. We disagree on some things, and ... how in the world is that blocking anyone?

Or do you feel that no one that feels differently than you should say anything? Personally, I would prefer it if more users popped in here. And they'd naturally be "all over the freakin' place", but a wider discussion is nearly always better in the end.

And this ...

Lumetri Color panel is literally just a lumetri copy that applies and links itself to Lumetri Effect, LOL. 

Um ... yea, you can use the Lumetri effect (indluding presets) in drag/drop to a clip, either in the ECP, the timeline, or the bin ... or use it as a panel on a Timeline, where when you 'touch' a control it auto-applies the effect. So you don't need to apply the effect to each clip, the app does so automatically. Saves a ton of time.

Which is a very good way of working, rather than in the ECP.

So I don't get you're complaint there at all. You have multiple ways of using it ... one of which is designed for working down the timline (similar to the color page in Resolve) ... but you find that hilarious somehow. Huh.

Now as to the Lumetri controls ... I've argued for a vastly deeper set of tools from the beginning when they sadly dumped SpeedGrade and 'replaced' it with Lumetri. It wasn't even close to a replacement, but the then-Pr manager didn't seem to like color work for 'editors' to begin with. He's long gone, but stuck us with dumping Sg.

As to general working in the app ... I create projects without any loss of either time nor ability to import/setup as I've always done. The new import page hasn't affected me whatever. I don't use it to create populate any project, but it hasn't slowed me down. (Though it would be better if we could simply hit Tab to invoke the Create Project rather than mousing ... but ah well.)

And the Export page ... if you're wasting time there, then ... well, that sucks yes, but there are ways to get out of the time wasting. Personally, I don't spend any extra/more time exporting than I did before.

Yes, it took a few minutes to setup my personal presets. But once done, well ... I just export & move on. Often though I Queue to ME and move on.

Neil

[Dragos Stefan]

1) That new import/export page was apparently a corporate type request, as the use-case given for it is clearly newsrooms. NOT Youtube. And for that work ... you gotta do several quick projects, someone's given you a folder of assets ... and each project needs three different length edits ... you got an hour ... yea, I can see that working great.

Second with that change, from the devs viewpoint, thinking in that marvelously unique way the engineering mind seems to work ... they see that they only made a minor "physical" change to the program. There's more visual change than functional change.

All previous functional behavior is still there.

And they've been kinda weirded out some people got so caught up with the visual change they didn't even notice that their old workflow was still there untouched. Well, I don't actually totally agree with the devs ... it sure wasn't obvious the 'old' way was still there! ... but yea, they do have a point there.

By @R Neil Haugen

To 1) Then they should just make it an alternative GUI, like the Media Browser for example.

To "Second": the main problem is that the whole thing is badly designed (functionally and graphically) and badly implemented and slow and un-ergonomic. I don't know what trash they use for that full screen GUI toolkit, but it's bad. It's BAD DESIGN and BAD ENGINEERING and this can be seen from a mile away.

The Adobe guy on the UserVoice issue, after telling everybody in the face that their opinion doesn't matter at all (because Adobe has "channels" 😄 ), ends with some vague statement that says "We'll work towards winning your trust on the new design".

How exactly did they work during the year that passed? 3 PP versions later, it's still the exact same. "We'll work towards winning your trust on the new design" is actually "We'll wait until you get tired".

Mod note: Profanity removed. Please do not use profanity in these forums.

[R Neil Haugen]

I could say the same about the Resolve UI, but of course, many friends tell me it's the most awesome UI ever. And they're welcome to enjoy it. I'm as welcome not to enjoy the Resolve UI.

I know people who think Maya is awesome for UI and others that think it's ... weird.

It seems how well a UI design is well, designed ... is oft in the eye of the beholder.

Neil

[Oğulcan Tokar]

"I could say the same about the Resolve UI"

That's the thing Neil, you can't say this. Resolve UI first off all;

- Doesn't have a spasm with an empty project
- Doesn't take 3 seconds show export window (Do not write an essay about this because it doesn't happen your computer, it shouldn't happen in any computer.)
- Doesn't create a ghost clip when you move it as if we are still using windows XP and its 2003

- Doesn't create dialogs for every little thing.

- Has million more features than Premiere
- Looks million times cooler, million times readible.

- Doesn't force you to have things like Multiple Projects. (I'm not saying it is bad feature, while I don't it a good feature, my point is it is not "forcing" me.)

Resolve UI lacks the customizibility, but he and I also pointing out that Resolve UI is engineered/coded million times better, while looking cooler & modern. Why do you find it weird that we ask modern standards for "applications" from a software company, blows my mind.

Only positive thing you can say about Premiere UI is that it is panel pased which allows for customized layouts. However, no one is saying this feature should go out, everything can be million times better while having customizable panels. (good example: Blender)  Premiere is still based on the same UI when it came out years ago. It has to be changed.

Main problem is your tolerance and standard for UI/UX is very low. Let me give you an example how this convo looks to us. (Ignore the terms used for example please.)

Random casual editor who only uses DNxHD files, and Premiere imports them, awesome for him, he likes it, however you need ProRes support in Premiere, and you ask for it, right? And that guy comes up and says "you can transcode".

That is you and Warren when it comes to anything related to Premiere UI & Performance. Adding that ProRes support wouldn't hurt DNxHD guy. This is what I'm talking about "Blocking". How can we expect Adobe to take action while they don't even think about this, and people they talk to -like you- doesn't even talk about it and live in dreamland with their low expectation on the matter? It works fine for you? Good. But things we want would work even better for you as well. You also can't even imagine the possibilities of "better" things to implement to the application while we are even showing you those possibilities from real & existing applications. Yet you still unable to understand or acknowledge them. 

Design is bad, codes for them is also insanely bad. Period.

"I know people who think Maya is awesome for UI and others that think it's ... weird."

Maya is based on one of the most stable and established frameworks called QT and it makes it so much easier to create tools for it. And Maya is not designed for you and me, it is designed for teams who has developers to create custom tools to extend it, and It being a QT app makes it so much easier to write tools with UI using python with PySide & PyQT library. Blender is the correct 3D application that you need to compare to Premiere, as it is designed for 1-person use. And believe me, Blender has absolutely the best UI that any application that can have. God I love that Search Function panel when you press tab, it being able to assign shortcuts literally to every button on the screen by just right clicking to it.

Also Premiere's support on creation of custom panels & scripting is also very annoying. Extendscript is so bad, it's based on of one of the ealiest version of javascript, it's just really annoying.. And to create panels, you also need to have knowledge in web coding as those custom extensions runs on HTML and connect extendscript to that panel properly. I wish it was just like Maya or Blender where we could just use Python for both creating the custom panel's UI and functionality. When you create a panel in them, it instantly looks same design as the app, as it's running on the same framework of the application. Resolve has this by the way.

"It seems how well a UI design is well, designed ... is oft in the eye of the beholder."

No It is not I'm mind blown by this sentence.You are coming up things like "its up to user" etc just because you see multiple people having different opinions on it, however that's not how UI/UX works, there are literally things can be added and improved which would also improve your work as well. And we are also complaining about the engineering part of the UI as well, it is absolutely garbage code and that is not subjective.

[Dragos Stefan]

It seems how well a UI design is well, designed ... is oft in the eye of the beholder.

Neil

By @R Neil Haugen

Seriously Neil, you should try harder. All these "hey, it's just your opinion, man" are becoming a big boring. Argument for the sake of argument or just so you feel you have the last word doesn't get you anywhere.

No, how well designed a UI is it's not in the eye of the beholder. 

And in this particular case, the comparison is very close: the UI that the current abomination is replacing. Which WORKED better, was FASTER and looked as being part of the SAME APPLICATION (also known as "consistent").

As for Maya and other digressions: any UI and workflow can be improved, but Maya's UI does the job a lot better overall for the multitude of tasks Maya is supposed to be doing, than Premiere Pro's UI does for the much more limited range it has to cover.

TLDR: Maya has a better UI than Premiere Pro.

In fact, every 3D app I used has a better UI than those present in editing apps, with the exception of maybe Lightworks and Avid. Maybe because 3D apps are so complex that if the UI's would be as lame as those of PP or Resolve, they'd be unusable.

[R Neil Haugen]

Well, as you apparently are the Absolute Master of UI, so of course, we'll all bow to your superior intellect.

Clearly, we'd all be better off if every video post app simply applied to you for UI decsions. No other opinion need be sought ...

Personally, I've never thought of myself as a UI Master. I know what I tend to like, I've seen a variety that work well ... and I know that most of my acquaintances are both different from me and from each other in the particulars of UI prefs. So I expect that most folks will go for something different.

I"m apparently quite wrong. Ah well.

Neil

[Dragos Stefan]

Is this the level you want the conversation to be, @R Neil Haugen ?

Floating between "it's all an unquantifiable, purely subjective thing" and "oh, you think you're smart now"?

[R Neil Haugen]

We have different assumptions going in, it seems to me. I expect that I'm one data point in millions, and though happy to post my thoughts, I also accept that oh yea, I'm one data point. I expect most to disagree with me on nearly everything.

And that's fine. As we are all unique anyway, I don't see how it could be any different than that.

UI is one of those things that will get very different thoughts from every individual. As I've said, I have friends who LOVE Resolve's UI, it's the Bees Knees of video apps UI design. And that's fine. They're welcome to love it as far as I'm concerned.

I ... work in Resolve when I have to ... because the UI is not a joy for my eyes or brain.

So we laugh about it and don't even have to formally "agree to disagree". We accept that we see and feel it differently, and that it's good there are options. Yep.

I've felt that your comments in this thread have tended to demand acceptance of your viewpoint as the perhaps only acceptable way of looking at UI.

I fully expect you will be different in expectations/likes than me, and that's totally fine. I don't expect you to like anything or change how you feel due to my comments ... or anyone else's. You are you ... unique, as we all are. Your thoughts/feelings are welcome and interesting.

Because I may like something, I don't expect you to like it. Feel free to disagree. I'd just like to see some acceptance that you may not have the only permissable 'take' on UI design.

Neil

[Oğulcan Tokar]

Cringe. 

[Dragos Stefan]

I ... work in Resolve when I have to ... because the UI is not a joy for my eyes or brain.

So we laugh about it and don't even have to formally "agree to disagree". We accept that we see and feel it differently, and that it's good there are options. Yep.

I've felt that your comments in this thread have tended to demand acceptance of your viewpoint as the perhaps only acceptable way of looking at UI.

Neil

By @R Neil Haugen

@R Neil Haugen , we actually (partially) agree at least when it comes to Resolve's UI. Not a fan, outside of the Color module. Not a good UI for pure editing, IMO. I prefer configurable GUI's like PP, Avid or Lightworks for constructing stories.

Sorry if I came across as "demanding acceptance for my viewpoint". Not my intention.

I do, however, believe that most things can be measured. And while the subjective perspective is obviously part of the discussion, especially at a macro level (se above: some prefer configurable multi-panel multi window GUIs, others: the compact approach of Resolve or FCPX), I do think discussions about how well a particular part of the UI (in this case the Export and create project panels) does its job. Especially when comparisons are available, consistency is involved etc.

So where I disagree is with the "it's in the eye of the beholder" thing.

Even more, I feel things should be put in context. I would choose PPro BECAUSE it has a configurable, multi-window/multi-panel GUI. If the devs decide at some moment to force a Resolve-type approach down my throat (full-screen pages), then I feel they are butchering their software and somebody there stopped understanding the design philosophy of the software (and one of the reasons many users choose that software).

[R Neil Haugen]

THIS post, well ... I'm pretty much agreeing on everything.

I've been through a ton of UI discussions, white papers, seminars, and studies. Which has been somewhat useful to my brain, for coming to several usable conclusions. If perhaps not in the way in which The Experts would have preferred.

Rather more like ... when playing American football in high school, supposedly we're supposed to learn to be simply part of The Team. Well ... thanks to the coaches I had ... I learned that the comment's by Polonious in the Bard's play ... " ...to thine ownself be true ..." are probably the wisest thing to learn around coaches.

In a ton of UI stuff, I've seen enough contradictions and differences of results ... to realize that UI is somewhat something we can quantify. As in, "there is a distinct probability larger groups might tend to prefer these particular three options than these other two options".

Watching two UI experts brought on-stage to pontificate, both quite comfortable with their expert-ness, but then seeing them realize that their results & conclusions are rather at odds ... well, that can get kinda humorous to me. Certainly wasn't to them, of course.

Which has left me with the preference for a UI with user choices as much as possible. And past that, I tend to figure if it looks ok to me, that's just an added bene, right?

I probably am not going to be in one of those potential larger groups. At least, I'm not going to assume so.

Ergo I look at things like the Import page of Pr, the Cut page of Resolve, and internally roll my eyes. For the Import page, I just ask for a minor change ... the ability to quickly ... one tab press or the Enter key ... to get to or activate Create Project. Then the rest won't bother me. I'll never look at it anyway.

Though actually, on two quick test projects, it was useful ... I will admit that.

The Export page ... hoi vey ... realizing that it wasn't going away TODAY, I went ahead and unstarred all the silly presets that have them, made DETAILED specific presets that I would use, and 'starred' them.

So now my most usable exports are available quickly in the list, and again, for the VAST majority of uses, I don't do anything besides set the name/location and preset. Done.

Even if I queue to Me, it's still just using those presets. Queue/hit the green "process" button, back to work.

Word processing and spreadsheet apps used to have a 'home' screen that had a collection of the most common 'tools' at the top. I rarely used past those, that simply worked.

But they've gotten FAR more useful these days ... ahem. HUNDREDS of tools available, and tend to have all sorts of options fro which toolset you want at this time. And now, I have to hunt for what used to be simply available on the 'home' page.

And supposedly, the userbase loves all the new options.

I clearly ain't the 'regular' user base. Sigh.

Neil