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Question

We Need Better Feedback From the Premiere Pro Team in Bug Reports!

Forum|Forum|3 years ago
January 11, 2023
10 replies
5419 views

The silence is deafening...

Mod note: This OT post was branched from a bug report about the Premiere Pro Team's lack of a response to a User Voice bug report about "fixing" the Import and Export Mode UIs. Thanks for understanding.

This topic has been closed for replies.

MikeDy

Known Participant

Agreed! How many times do we need to get fobbed off.... How many vagues, oh we're looking into it....How many unsubstantiated claims from Adobe that they know better and that they have evidence from their channels and other users that these changes are positive when I haven't spoken to a single Prmiere user who agrees with that statement out of the about 30 i've spoken to dircetly over the last 9 months or so... Make up your mind, do you want your customers feedback or not? If so have the good manners to a. respond and b. do something about it...

jayg3263827

Participating Frequently

"First, as a publicly traded company, by legal requirements, they never, EVER give a roadmap for what's coming. Until it's out in the public beta."

This is absolutely not the case. The only real requirements for communications about future plans is that if "material information" is communicated, everyone in the world has to get that information at the same time -- a company can't share some future plans with random people or companies that don't need to know them ahead of those plans being revealed, for example, but beyond that? No.

"Material information" also generally applies to larger things -- say, if Adobe was going to be releasing a new product (or a new major release of an existing product). "Plans for the export screen" almost certainly do not fall under this umbrella. Generally, something is considered material (in this context) if "there is a substantial likelihood that a reasonable shareholder would consider it important in making an investment decision" -- and lets face it, people aren't going to invest (or not) in Adobe because of their future plans for the export screen.

Even if that was material, though, as long as the information is public, Adobe can talk about whatever they want to (with a few limitations that are not applicable here).

So, yeah, there may be plenty of valid reasons for Adobe not to talk about their plans for Premiere, but this isn't one of them.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Interesting you go to Resolve ... which hath issues for some users also. Any look at the BM forums gets that.

Such as all the colorists that stayed on 15 when 16 came out, and never actually used any 16.x version because on their rig it blipped somehow. Yea, I worked with some of those. Went from a late 15.x version to around 17.2.

But other users were working in the 16.x versions and getting great performance.

With 18 ... came I think it was 18.1, which noted colorist MTO ... Mark Todd Osborne ... posted about that nearly bricking his machine, so he had to uninstall and revert for a usable version. As did others.

Every colorist based in Resolve I know has a long list of bugs & poor UI/setup choices that they've wanted fixed, communicated to BM for YEARS about, but are still there. It's a fascinating discussion when at NAB they get into comparing their lists.

And finally, the price ... well, like DUH!!!!! .... there's a painfully obvious reason that Resolve has a 'free' version and the one-time paid version.

In case you haven't noticed, Resolve exists totally as a loss leader.

Adobe makes money by selling the use of software. One model.

BlackMagic makes money by selling hardware. A different and equally valid model.

And Resolve exists simply to get you to buy BM hardware. They're very clear about this too, including in their forums.

They know that mapping for other hardware used with Resolve is only allowed by what simple few mappings the BM devs allow. Other hardware is nearly crippled, such as Tangent, Monogram, and other company hardware.

And when pressed, they do say that will NEVER EVER change. Without apology whatever.

Because they want you to spend a slot of cash on several different BM bits of kit.

And further, that BM kit for Resolve only works in Resolve. Their panels, keyboards, the cut tool ... do not work with any other app, ONLY Resolve.

By intention and stated purpose.

So ... are they "mean", or simply, doing what they choose to make money as they wist?

I understand the different profit model, which irritates me a bit. But that is their choice. And I've got enough BM kit to have several Resolve licenses sitting in a drawer here. And yes, I used one to get the Studio version and work with that daily.

But at least as of this time, I've no interest in buying any BM desktop Resolve kit. My Tangent Elements panel does enough for what I need in Resolve. Even though they intentionally limit it to only a few things on the Color page.

While in "Adobe", it's an incredible tool that I have total control over mapping. And can use not only in color, but for audio mixing, resizing/positioning/rotating any screen element, all sorts of things.

If you prefer Resolve, as many of my good friends do, USE IT. Forget 'loyalty' to a company, they're all going to do fine without you or me.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

Oğulcan Tokar

Inspiring

This is so far the most "stretched" answer you made Neil not gonna lie. You literally took a problem from literally 2 version ago which has been fixed, and later you go on and explain how some very advanced colorist had issues with his advanced problems on a minor patch. However the "millions" of user you keep bragging about on Premiere, will literally won't have that extremely specific issue at all, while he is literally talking about problems like completely basic things.

"And Resolve exists simply to get you to buy BM hardware. They're very clear about this too, including in their forums."

This is also very stretched and you keep bringing it up however, once again millions of users you keep brining up on Premiere literally just uses keyboard and mouse, so not an issue either. If you want a professional environment with a stable software and "hardware" there is no harm in buying it, isn't resolve best for coloring anyway?

Also I'm not saying BM is a guardian angel or anything, in my opinion they are both annoying companies on how they handle things. However as "hardware selling" company BM literally provides a "better" software with very innovative solutions with literally every patch, not to mention It doesn't force you to a subscription model and anyone can use it for basic editing for free. I'm so enjoying the new audio updates not gonna lie, I'm very bad with audio, and right now it's just one click, it is just amazing, but Premiere Pro users can render shape strokes, that's W.

" they're all going to do fine without you or me."

You have lost that tiny shred of little respect I had for you with that sentence right there. People like you are the reason why we can't have nice things while we pay for it with our hard earned money. You might be fine with your pipeline, however issues are there. You are just unable to understand it, It took you millions of parapgraphs to even comprehend how bad the new export window is. If you agree just say you agree and move on, If you don't, please give an actual excuse rather than making things up or bringing a problem that existed 4 years ago for some advanced user.

Things change, stop blocking the river.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

I'm sorry @Warren Heaton10841144 but did you even bother to read the things I wrote or test them? This is why I don't specify, you barely read %50 understand %15, interpret %15 wrong, ignore the rest that's actually anything negative to Premiere.

You are asking for specific things, thinking you can understand them like you do in a topic lets say codec as you are very familiar with them however with every UI/UX talk, I feel like I'm trying to explain codecs to someone who doesn't even know how to check the extension of a video. It is agony to me.

"A text field in Photoshop's Keyboard Shortcuts and Menus would be great; however, if someone wants to change the keyboard shortcut in Photoshop for Layer > New > Layer..., it's just a few clicks away."

- No you can't, this is not possible, that shortcut will create a dialog pop up. It won't create a new layer directly. I can't even believe I'm even have to explain something this simple. Twice. And you expect me to be specific in UX design. Anyways "New Layer" function without dialog is only possible through the ways I explained, which is a "workaround". No point of lying blindly.

And also what's with that sentence? X feature would be great, "however" you can do completely unrelated Y? What? Those are not even related, and no alternatives to each other, but your sentence sounds like it, not to mention not even true.

- Documentation is important, I use them for writing scripts and 3D apps, never needed for any editing application, as they are straightforward. Not to mention their documentations are pretty bad.

Here is a good documentation : https://docs.blender.org/

"Premiere Pro has List View, Icon View, and Freeform View and it's easy to expand the Project panel to see the entire contents of a project at any time."

- What is the point here? My point is you can't have "two views" in one panel in Premiere, while in Resolve you can and it is default..

"I do not get "ghost clips" in Premiere Pro. Again, I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing something different with the user interface."

- No you do. I'm not gonna bother explain third time.

"Show/Hide Effects is a "Fx" switch in the Effect Controls while it's a red left-right switch in the Inspector in Resolve. I'm not sure there's much difference."

- I was reffering to "Global Effects" toggle not even clip effects.. However it is a very minor thing. More related to having better "defaults", which is not good for beginners, and also pros.

"Premiere Pro has Time Remapping that can be controlled with a Bezier Path in the Timeline. Have you had a chance to use it?"

- First speed doesn't have normal controls as keyframes, second bezier controls on keyframes should have proper snaps, proper heights, colored properly, you can't even be specific on them, they are insanely small and hard to deal with. AE has proper ones if you are curious on how it should be. Resolve is also bad on this as well, however I just Fusion quickly for this. Way more responsive than Dynamic Link.

"As far as changes to thumbnails go, are you referring to the view options in the Settings pop-up menu? These are detailed in the user guide, but an in-app level preview would be helpful"

- I have no idea what you are talking about here.

"My Premiere Pro Workspaces change instantly. I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing something different with the user interface."

- I didn't even mention this, you wanted to bring it up didn't you? Yeah, my computer can render a scene with millions of polygons and have real time path tracing, however struggle to render Premiere UI properly.

"Users can create keyframes in the Effect Controls or the Timeline. It's up to the user to decide which location works better: at the clip level or at the timeline level."

They are both bad. bad .bad bad bad BAAAAAAAAAD.

"The Source tab and Program tab can be configured to use the same Frame or a Workspace that already does this can be used (i.e. Assembly, Vertical, Review, or Libraries)"

- Please read my sentence. And also that won't be the same behaviour. When you have both "Program" and "Source" Tab in same panel, it won't auto switch from Source tab to Program tab when you click on your timeline, you have to switch to Program tab manually. Resolve it is auto, because those are not considered as just "Panels"

"I do not get a long delay when switching to Export or using Quick Export. Again, I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing something different with the user interface."

- Should I suffer then? What about Blender, Maya and other million times more complicated softwares that's running perfectly smooth ony my computer? Does my hardware do not like Premiere? Your logic is insane.

"Token names would be great. After Effects offers these. If you post this as a feature request, please link it and I'll vote for it."

- I won't. I don't care, if an engineer cared about this, it would be in it, it is a very simple feature, they just don't care.

"Switching to Fairlight is effectively switching to Auditon. It would be nice if more of Audition was integrated into Premiere Pro. It is very much so under the hood."

- Nope. Fairlight is integrated, Audition is not. You literally wrote this yourself. How? And also I should have been more clear, everything Audio related is better in Resolve, even without using Fairlight.

"Premiere's Adjustment Layer is similar to Photoshop's Adjustment Layer and After Effects' Adjustment Layer and also to Resolve's Adjustment Clip. Being able to group color adjustments and effects in another way sounds interesting."

- You can also do that on multiple levels of timelines. Apply those groups pre-clip / post-clip. You can't achieve any of those with that simplicity with just adjustment layers. It is one of my favoruite features.

"Are you not finding an option to set Audio Hardware to System Default?"

- Nice. They finally added it, since its "release".

"Overall, it sounds like you feel that Photoshop needs a complete UI redesign as well as Premiere Pro. Frankly, I completely disagree.After Effects, Animate, Auditon, Bridge, Character Animator, Illustrator, InDesign, Media Encoder, Photoshop, Premiere Pro, and Premiere Rush being similar to each other is what makes it very easy to move between them not only for beginners but for those who might be very experienced in one or two but then need to pick up another. "

- Yes you disagree I am well aware, because you "think" my idea of redesign and remaking it with modern standards would actually erase the good parts of the UI that you enjoy. This is not at all the case. I had to explain even the most simple problems in multiple long paragraphs, we can't have good long conversation on that level where I can be specific to you at some point.

"As far as the framework goes, I think we're back to you experiencing degraded performance on your workstation and being happier with how other non-Adobe applications work. It's clear that you feel very strongly that something is simply broken with Premiere Pro, but if other users (like Neil and myself) are able to get good performance then there is likely something else causing the issue than a bug."

- These are very bad arguments for those problems. And once again I'm reminding you, it shouldn't happen on any of my computers, or anyones. There are apps that can do this while managing a better UI and much more complex processes, my computer is fine, it is the lazy & bad engineering on both performance and design, not a bug, I believe I was pretty clear on that, I don't even remember writing a bug here, I'm pretty sure I was always specific to bad engineering.

Lastly with these lack of understandings of a modern UX/UI design combined with your low expectation from an application, you sure you can talk about how a UX/UI should or shouldn't be in modern application in my opinion? Both Neil and you believe you can talk about UI/UX design as if you are talking about Codecs, however I feel like I'm talking to a wall when it comes to talking anything especially UI/UX related, and convert it in to a "Resolve vs Premiere" convo because I use an example from Resolve or any other app that could be transferred to Premiere easily. Just so you know I don't like both, I hate both, I just hate Resolve less. Stop defending Premiere this blindly, and try to atleast think and be little more open to the new ideas/changes. Not even Devs would try to defend an application like this.

"Furthermore, even minor changes in well-established applications are likely to cause unintended strife among the user base."

I'm one of them as you can see, however Premiere's bad choices were nothing "minor". These are absolute best examples of failure in both UI/UX design and engineering. Tho death threats are absolutely insane.

"UI is fine"

While I think this conversation has been frustrating for you, for me ... it's kind of "homey", really.

It's nearly identical to the many, many conversations with the engineers for Pr or any other app I've been in at NAB over the years!

In those conversations, I'm a user talking with engineers. Now, these are all engineers who are also passionate editors, users of the app themselves. BUT ... they are first and foremost, engineers.

And they approach things from an engineer's viewpoint. So, for many of the things a user would say "Well, I think this option should be in that menu instead" ... that comment causes massive brain pain for the engineers.

Because in the code tree for the app, that control/option is built as part of the same code system as where it currently 'exists' visually in the app. Ergo, the controls and options belong together. It's clean code!

But for the user, well ... we never (or rarely) use that control when doing X, but when doing Y. So we want that option/control grouped in the UI with the other options/controls we use when doing Y. And so for the user, it makes perfect sense to us to "simply" move that option/control to Y.

The engineer's brain is near exploding at this point, as that would SO mess with the code "cleanliness". You're splitting the UI view of the option/control WAY the heck and gone from the other options/controls of that same code grouping.

Which to the engineer, is both a horror and a pathway to Disaster.

Well ... Warren and I are users. And both of us pretty practical users to boot. What works now is cool, and we're not sweating so much over other things. Because not only are we not engineers, neither are we UX/UI designers.

You, clearly, are far more trained, and by mental inner construction, suited for being a UX/UI designer. Which in and of itself is a sort of engineering view of things. Just different than the coding engineer's view of things.

Way past Warren and I there ... way past.

So for some things which (understandably) cause you great mental pain, it's as also understandable that Warren and I go ... yeah, whatever. As both of us are simply practical users, we both ignore some of the problems you see quickly enough. Things that are even painful for you. Because for us, while working away, it makes no practical difference.

But for you, it's WRONG!!!!

And you may well (from certain design viewpoints at least) be absolutely correct. I don't quibble with that at all.

And it's as educational for me to deal with a major UX/UI person like you as it is to deal with the coding engineers. And as intriguing, also.

I am hoping the devs are reading your comments though. It's another perspective, a very worthwhile one, and should be listened to. Which doesn't necessarily mean agreed with, but well worth listening to and considering, for points that might be worth changing.

I don't know how familiar you are with the full Adobe corporate structure. The apps like Pr, Photoshop et al, are just one small part of the whole company. They have a "documents" section based around the PDF thing ... which is really secure communications (and I mean, SECURE!!!!) for Major Corporations at heart ... which is HUGE.

And they do UI/UX development for other major corporations, especially to tailor the consumer experience to the desired "feel" for that brand/corporation. Which is also a large operation.

So ... internally ... Adobe has massive UI/UX resources. Which of course means (as with any human endeavor) that their UI/UX people naturally have a particular group 'drift' or pathway through such things.

I've been interviewed both in-person and online by some of their UI/UX people. They had charts with options ... which were more clearly and/or appropriately grouped? They had different UI looks and feels ... which is more clean and clear? They had an option, listed with six different phasings. What would I expect (in detail) as a result of choosing each phasing option?

So I think they tend to run or make decisions more on "our testing with people showed X result", rather than using a more conceptual based paradigm like "Proper UI/UX design is structured like This."

But then, that's just my experience in dealing with a few people out of a very, very massive corporation.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

default9ytzb7vmpw4lAuthor

Known Participant

These are all different editors that have recently switched to Resolve. This is basically all I ever hear. I have never heard any editor say anything nice about Premiere.

Mod note: Edited for content. Please do not post photos containing profanity. That is not allowed according to Adobe Community Guidelines. Text was edited for context.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

You can post forum complaints 'till the cows come home. Included in there you'll find a whole bunch of mine too!

Because yes, I've been rather vociferous over quite a few things "here" that I didn't appreciate.

Calling it "research" seems a bit of a stretch however.

The hard data of user numbers is far more useful to a mega-corp like Adobe. And they have many thousands of people studying such metrics across all the many applications they create. So I think they wouldn't find your sample useful. (They've probably already quantified every post you can dig up, believe me ... )

Neither Adobe on this, nor BlackMagic on so many questions on their forums, is going to say squat on many things like unto this. Period.

Yes, we users can post that we'd like X changed. I heartily suggest doing so, always have, always will.

Personally, I've been told that a bug involving multiple instances of Lumetri on a clip and control panels will probably never ever be fixed. In person. Yea, that's a big pain point for me. But realistically, I can still do a ton more in Pr with an Elements panel than in Resolve. So ... it's all relative, you know?

And at that point, get on with Life. With whatever tool you find useful.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

default9ytzb7vmpw4lAuthor

Known Participant

I work in the industry. I'm not an idiot. Everyone I talked to in the music industry, youtube, and my side projects have been switching to Resolve. Clients literally have been requesting Resolve. And they all say the same thing. Premiere is slow, buggy, and crashes way too much. So not sure what numbers you're looking at....

Mod note: Edited for content. Please do not attack fellow editors in the thread.

default9ytzb7vmpw4lAuthor

Known Participant

I have also never been personally disrespected by Blackmagic employees. While I've been lied to, disrespected, hung up on, stood up 10 TIMES for customer service calls.

default9ytzb7vmpw4lAuthor

Known Participant

Blackmagic does NOT break their app and leave it broken for years.

This situation is "just" 8 months. There's other app breaking bugs that have been presents for YEARS. Yet not been fixed. I'm also not paying $50 a month for Davinci Resolve. I paid once and thats it. Adobe wants my money every — month with zero in return.

THAT's THE DIFFERENCE.

Mod note: Profanity removed. Kindly do not use it here.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Let's take a look at your angst from a couple different directions.

First, as a publicly traded company, by legal requirements, they never, EVER give a roadmap for what's coming. Until it's out in the public beta.

Are they alone in this?

NO.

Neither does BlackMagic or Avid or Apple.

So your 'demand' for an explanation is on its face never happening. With ANY company, not just Adobe. So anywhere you go, you will get the identical behavior you're claiming on wanting to "leave Adobe" over.

As someone who uses BM's Resolve on a daily basis, and works for/with/teaches pro colorists based in that app, I'm on the BM forums daily. They also have threads with people ticked off because of issues that they will not publicly address.

As they follow the exact same process as the Adobe company: users learn what's coming in public betas, never ever anywhere else.

Avid ... well, it's a well built app in general, but changes there have according to friends that use it made molasses in the fridge look fluid & fast-moving. And again, you know a change is coming when it "lands".

So ... where you gonna go?

Second, as noted in many other places, there are two rather simple ways to get around the annoyance of the Export "page".

You clearly prefer Angst. Ah well, what can anyone do?

Third ... is "Adobe" losing users over this? Well gee ... the daily number of users has grown dramatically over the last couple years, so that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? So across the user base, apparently far fewer agree with you than you seem to think. And yea, they've done things I thought stupid also. That didn't seem to bother most other users.

Which ... is darn annoying, granted.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

default9ytzb7vmpw4lAuthor

Known Participant

I don't think Adobe understand what they have done by ignoring those threads. Literally EVERYONE I have talked to is dumping Adobe because of that and a multitude of other problems. Wouldn't you think Adobe would fix the problem?

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Silence on what specifically?

I'd like the ability to queue to Me via keyboard shortcut. Which at times would be very handy.

What do you want different? And just don't say "the old window" ... what specific actions do you want to do in order?

I will most happily admit that new Export page as-shipped is PAINFUL. Yup, no question.

But for most purposes, once one goes through and un-stars all the presets one won't use, creates detailed presets one will use ... this becomes a non-issue.

So try that, as it takes maybe 10 or 15 minutes spent one day, after which you don't have to deal with the clickiness of the new window hardly ever.

And save your sanity.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

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