Should I use Coldfusion?

lovewebdev, you're not going to get any useful information on this thread now that our resident troll is filling it full of FUD. And unfortunately, he's so many times in the past started threads like this that regular users will often question whether your question was even legitimate or just yet another alias he's created...particularly once you start using the same favorite arguments of his (number of books for one). If you really are legitimate and want some useful discussion and information, I'd suggest jumping over to houseoffusion.com which is host to many of the most popular CF mailing lists and thankfully is moderated more so not quite so open to this non-stop trolling crap that we get on here. There are many of us that make our living doing CF, my company currently employs over 12 developers and continues to grow and as you'll often see in other discussions, CF programmers often can pull in much higher salaries here in the US over .Net programmers...simple supply and demand, good CF programmers are in high demand whereas .Net are a dime a dozen. In other areas it may be different, you have to just know your market and do some research of your own.

John P

re: You know this conversation makes me a little nervous.

Hey, it probably shouldn't. These discussions are inevidable with any
platform. They all lose ground and are eventually replaced by another to
some degree. CF was big back in the day, but now it's the underdog in a
packed market of better options. (at least, thats a commonly held
perception) Remember, cf itself isn't a bad technology, but the fact that it
is small and undermarketed has serious implications w/r to how far you can
go with it and/or how comfortable you feel investing in it. The truth (and I
mean truth) is that the overwhelming majority of developers and it managers
wouldn't touch it these days for all sorts of reasons. Not a single one of
them is that it can't get the job done, a it still can. To me, theres just
far less opputunity, far fewer tools, poor support and lack of decent
hosting wher I am based.

re: > You guys have to admit that their aren't many books on CF, which is
quite odd.

Not odd at all. CF is not very popular so there's not much of a market for
books. There used to be hundreds though. The "yaysayers" will tell you and
themselves that there are no books for cf as its so easy. I've heard that
classic a few times! Besides, publishers are actually pulling books due to
lack of demand. O'Reilly did a very nice one for a number of years (the only
decent competitor to CFWACK) but have ditched it (a couple of years back)
due to lack of demand.

re: Even PHP has books
> printed every year

Thats becuase php is popular. Which is sad in my opinion, as php is not
really any better (or worse ) than cf. It just happends to widely supported
and has a great community and industry around it. CF could just as easily
been in this position right now if forethought was applied. (And adobe would
be raking it in with support and tools sales)




"lovewebdev" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f4qcq8$sj6$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> You know this conversation makes me a little nervous.
>
> Can anyone point me to Adobe's discussion of the future of Coldfusion.
> They
> should have some white papers talking about their plans for Coldfusion
> somewhere. It is odd for a company not to vigorously market their product
> with
> such competition.
>
> You guys have to admit that their aren't many books on CF, which is quite
> odd.
> Isn't Forta's book like the only serious book on CF? All others were
> published
> in 2003, latest? I have to say that isn't a wonderful sign. Even PHP has
> books
> printed every year if you do an Amazon search and look at publication
> dates.
>
> CF
>
> http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-8623297-5100903?url=search-alias%3Dstripbook
> s&field-keywords=coldfusion&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
> PHP
>
> http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-8623297-5100903?url=search-alias%3Dstripbook
> s&field-keywords=PHP&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
> ASP.NET
>
> http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-1316016-5240808?url=search-alias%3Dstripbook
> s&field-keywords=ASP.NET
>
> I just want to make sure Adobe won't do something crazy to CF if I invest
> time
> building web sites in it you know.
>

re: MySpace needed to be reworked because it was done poorly. Not because
it was
built on ColdFusion.

I agree totally. But for a site of this size, cf is not appropriate. You
can't hinge such a huge vernture on a small obscure scripting language that
is doing all it can to keep what few developers it has loyal to the cause.
CF is a funny one - it's priced fo rbig business but suited more to newbies
building basic sites. There's not much (any) marketing done to correct this
either.

"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f4pcgj$lvk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> That is my point regarding MySpace. It is a mess. But it is a mess not
> because
> it uses ColdFusion, but rather because it is poorly designed. The fact
> that a
> pooly designed entity such as MySpace has bloomed into the state that it
> currently finds itself in is what makes it unique.
>
> MySpace needed to be reworked because it was done poorly. Not because it
> was
> built on ColdFusion.
>

You know this conversation makes me a little nervous.

Can anyone point me to Adobe's discussion of the future of Coldfusion. They should have some white papers talking about their plans for Coldfusion somewhere. It is odd for a company not to vigorously market their product with such competition. I'm going to check out some of Adobe's showcases on CF. (Sad I haven't done so yet)

You guys have to admit that their aren't many books on CF, which is quite odd. Isn't Forta's book like the only serious book on CF? All others were published in 2003, latest? I have to say that isn't a wonderful sign. Even PHP has books printed every year if you do an Amazon search and look at publication dates.

CF
http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-8623297-5100903?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=coldfusion&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
PHP
http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-8623297-5100903?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=PHP&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
ASP.NET
http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-1316016-5240808?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=ASP.NET

I just want to make sure Adobe won't do something crazy to CF if I invest time building web sites in it you know.

re: If you are turned off by the fact that
there are *only* a few hundred CF hosts then you have your head stuck
somewhere.

As do many people have their heads stuck in the same place. Less hosts means
less competition, which is bad. But worse, less hosts, as in FAR FAR less
hosts is an indication of cf's diminishing popularity. When you notice a
platform has such a significantly smaller fraction of demand in ths way,
this a sure sign that you need to stick your head in this place, have good
think, and question if CF is the way forward or just a blast from the past.

The small number of hosts represents teh samll number of everything cf
related - and this is never a good thing.


"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f4osn3$2r5$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Criminy! How many hosts do you need to choose from? It is not like there
> are
> one or two. There are hundreds of CF hosts out there. I cannot argue that
> there
> are more hosts that support other platforms, but at what point does this
> become
> an argument of diminishing returns? If you are turned off by the fact that
> there are *only* a few hundred CF hosts then you have your head stuck
> somewhere.
>
> The MySpace scenario is so far removed from most of the development in the
> world that it shows more of a naivitae in your analytical skills than
> anything
> else. I think most of us on this board would readilly admit that a project
> the
> size of MySpace is very close to unique. Further, without knowing the
> talent
> and skill of the developers of MySpace, it is foolish to assume that
> another
> set of programmers could not succeed with an implementation of ColdFusion.
> I
> would be completely remiss if I was approached by a customer wanting an
> intranet and I responded with "MySpace ditched it, so I am sure it is not
> right
> for you". If you are so convinced, why not call up BankOfAmerica and tell
> them
> how irresponsible they are for using CF.
>
> Since CF is a tool, you can't just look at what an unknown programmer has
> achieved and use that as a basis for what CF is capable of. There are
> plenty of
> poorly constructed houses in the world. That does not make it responsible
> or
> logical to boycott hammers.
>
>
>

re:From what I gather, he is of the opinion that his passive-agressive,
tough-love
rhetoric is going to persuade Adobe to give CF away for free and build his
idea of an IDE. Based on this philosophy, he thinks he is doing the CF
community a favor by pointing out his theories. He can't do that if he
leaves.

Correct.

re: He does not hate CF. He hates the fact that his skills are not at the
point
where he can find work using CF in Austraiia.

Incorrect - but good come back nonetheless. Definitely good form!

That way the time
> and effort he has invested in learning CF would not feel 'wasted' to him.
>

No offense here, but if you knew anything about programming you would
realise that time in any languiage is not wasted. Programming is about
solving problems and one should be able to do this in any language. In other
words, learning cf and then being forced intoa a php scenario should not
matter to a good coder. Good coders adapt and use their experience. If you
consider time you spent on one platform a "waste" then you ar enot thinking
correctly.

CFML is not a problem. It's just a scripting language like any other. It
just happens to marketed badly, much too expensive and have poor adoption.



"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f4p6v4$feu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> From what I gather, he is of the opinion that his passive-agressive,
> tough-love
> rhetoric is going to persuade Adobe to give CF away for free and build his
> idea of an IDE. Based on this philosophy, he thinks he is doing the CF
> community a favor by pointing out his theories. He can't do that if he
> leaves.
>
> And, by creating over 25 aliases with the same three arguments, he thinks
> that
> his points will appear more justified and popular than they really are. He
> even
> posts from the same IP under different names in the same freakin'
> conversation!
>
> He does not hate CF. He hates the fact that his skills are not at the
> point
> where he can find work using CF in Austraiia. If CF were to "come up to
> speed",
> he could find a job based on his alleged experience with CF. That way the
> time
> and effort he has invested in learning CF would not feel 'wasted' to him.
>

re: No reliable CF hosting?

Replace "No" with "far less"

re: that you really
> need to spend time trying to find a CF host.

you do - many offer limited functionality of cf. Many are not so stable.
Many charge a premium. Of course you should spend time. With any platfom
actually, but definitely cf as it is a far less competetive market.

re: > "ROR is more RAD"

Yes, it was designed specifically to be so. They didn't fail. Visist the ror
website.

re: lets compare the number of ROR jobs to the number of CF jobs

There aren't many RoR jobs. Don't use RoR if you are looking for work, it's
even worse than CF in that resepct. (But probably not for very much longer)

re: If you hate CF some much, then just go away...why are you hanging out
on a CF
forum anyway?!?!?

Love CF, great tool. Wish that it was used enough to begin using it again
actually. Sadly, CF has been shunned by the web dev community and I'm sick
of people telling me they think it is dead adn making comments like
"coldfusion, oh, is that still going is it!??" Figure if I whinge enough
Adobe will actually market it. (My whinging got the image functionality put
into the latest release, so be grateful someone bothers to make a fuss about
the state of cf)





"SYRRoss" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f4p32o$ao2$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I sometimes wonder where the CF griefers come from. Their arguments are
>all
> very similar and all very thin.
>
> No reliable CF hosting? really? A quick google search for "coldfusion
> hosting" (quoted) returns 284k results. Within the fist 10 results are
> the
> three hosts I mentioned earlier. Yet somehow, Campag claims that you
> really
> need to spend time trying to find a CF host. Where are you looking dude,
> Alta
> Vista????? Try the google, it seems to work well.
>
> "ROR is more RAD" How do you make this comparison? By what benchmark?
> Tell
> you what, lets compare the number of ROR jobs to the number of CF jobs
> available...CF wins hands down.
>
> If you hate CF some much, then just go away...why are you hanging out on a
> CF
> forum anyway?!?!?
>

Regardless of the "real" reason, jumping to the conclusion that they moved *because* of CF is just assinine.

It's just a rumor, but I heard that Microsoft offered them numerous incentives to move to a .NET platform, including breaks on licensing and engineering/programming assistance.

That is my point regarding MySpace. It is a mess. But it is a mess not because it uses ColdFusion, but rather because it is poorly designed. The fact that a pooly designed entity such as MySpace has bloomed into the state that it currently finds itself in is what makes it unique.

MySpace needed to be reworked because it was done poorly. Not because it was built on ColdFusion.