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pziecina
pziecina
Legend
June 28, 2017
Answered

Has anyone else noticed?

  • June 28, 2017
  • 4 replies
  • 2082 views

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the change in the type of questions now being posted in the forum?

Last year about 50% of questions were Bootstrap related, with the occasional complaint, code related problem and lack of knowledge questions making up the rest.

Now though I often find it difficult to find a question that I can join in with. With so many complaints being posted, many of which are not solved, and just as many being caused by the users requirements or set-up, I'm starting to feel redundant in the field of front-end development questions. I know Dw 2017 was a very unwelcome change to many users, but can it really be the main reason for the massive increase in complaints or the lack of code related problems alone, or have many of the complaints been building up over a number of versions with the changes introduced in 2017 being the final 'tipping point', and users unable to say exactly what is wrong, simply pointing to the obvious..

Over the last 3 weeks I have watched Osgood literally create the menu and page for one poster, and congratulate him on his patience and endurance, but often when I read the OP's reply's, I kept asking myself why that poster did not know what they were doing, as most of the problems encountered were basic knowledge, and I found myself wanting to suggest that they buy a good book on html and css, (does no one buy/read such book anymore?).

I know some will say that this forum has not attracted many none specific Dw questions for a few years, but other forums, (not just Adobe's) are experiencing the same problems with the drop in 'footfall' to some extent. maybe other forms of social media, or the readily available videos, (irrespective of quality and accuracy) are adding to this decline, and should we even be even looking at the why, for what I perceive as a drop in real questions?

One final thought, could it also be that there are now too many people looking at web development, and thinking that it is easy, so are moving over to programs like Muse and Webflow, without knowing what to do when things go wrong, or what is required once a static site grows too big and becomes unmanageable. Most of us look at 20+ page sites as something that the should be considered for a CMS, but in this and the Muse forum 150+ page static sites are now becoming common again, and in some cases designers who have no idea about how the web works, are posting questions relating to the creation of such large static sites.

    This topic has been closed for replies.
    Correct answer Preran

    pziecina  wrote

    osgood_   wrote

    As far as I can read you have to install a GIT client on your computer before anything will happen in Dreamweaver is that correct?

    Yes, but if you are using Dw the set-up is simply install and forget for most users, as you then do everything inside Dw. The main problems start when someone has already installed, configured, and used git before, or does not use git on the same drive as Dw is installed on, and that would be about 90% of people not developing alone or in a 1-3 user team.

    Then again, I have been told, (though not by anyone from Adobe) by others, that people working in teams are not the intended Dw user base.

    I just read the instructions.

    Before you start using Git to manage your files, you must first download the Git client and sign up with your email ID. If you already have a Git account, you can directly start using Git from within Dreamweaver. '

    Its a bit misleading because it says 'BEFORE you start using' then goes on to say 'If you already have' - so which is it?

    Can you or cant you use GIT if you dont download a GIT client? And if you can what advantages are there to installing a GIT Client other than not having to keep browsing out to the GIT website to see if your files have been pushed.


    Osgood,

    Based on your recommendation, the author has modified the help content for GIT. Thank you for your suggestions.

    Learn how to download and use Git with Dreamweaver CC.

    Thanks,

    Preran

    4 replies

    rayek.elfin
    rayek.elfin
    Legend
    June 29, 2017

    In my opinion the cause is quite simple: Dreamweaver is less and less used by "serious and professional" web developers. Those who are experienced developers just don't view DW as a professional tool anymore. It's as simple as that. Among all my developer friends, acquaintances, work colleagues, and students, as far as I am aware of, no-one seems to consider DW for their development, whether front-end or back-end. Besides, many web devs have branched out into mobile app dev and DW's workflow was far too single-minded and stuck in the past to accommodate that shift.

    Basically, DW is snubbed at by "web professionals". And not without good reason: Adobe made a mess of things in DW in the past five-ten years. Whether DW users here like it or not, DW is lagging behind the curve, and has been for a long time. The newer version is a small glimmer of light, but probably too little too late. DW was dropped by most developers a long time ago. And it generally takes a lot of frustration before developers leave their current tools. Once you lose them, it's particularly hard to entice them back.

    Which leaves CC users, who notice when they install the CC suite that Adobe offers something called "Dreamweaver" to create sites. And have little or no development knowledge. Hence the shift in direction of posts' content here.

      pziecina
      pziecinaAuthor
      Legend
      June 30, 2017

      rayek.elfin  wrote

      Which leaves CC users, who notice when they install the CC suite that Adobe offers something called "Dreamweaver" to create sites. And have little or no development knowledge. Hence the shift in direction of posts' content here.

      That is probably true, as no one is going to buy a Dreamweaver only subscription, due to the cost. There are enterprise users though who can instal any program from the CC offerings individually on computers, and they are also consulted as to their requirerments, what type of user they are, and the requirerments they have we unfortunatly do not know.

      One major problem is that no one will tell us just who Dw is aimed at, and the statment, 'designers who wish to code' says very little. If i was to ask you what you wish to see in the next release of Dw, you would only state the major items, and almost certainly not even mention any html, css, javascript or server side improvments beyond saying you want SB's back. Those items though are what interest serious developers, and users of other development tool had laughed at SB's and the people who used them for years before they were dropped.

      Most professional developers did drop Dw long before the CC subscription model was introduced, mainly due to 'better offerings' from other programs, and Dw was left with still having to cater for those users who even now think html5 is only a semantics improvment over html4, or that wordpress is still the future.

      As for Dw making a mess of everything in the last 5+ years, i am partly to blame for that and freely admit so. I was a part of the process up to Dw 2014, and fully agreed with the modernisation of Dw, however all i can tell you is that a lot that i thought was going to happen didn't.

      Dreamweaver could apeal to the proffessional developer, and as many app developers are now moving back to browser based app development, the market for supporting their requirements is open, but what you and others would like to see included in Dw, is almost certainly not what i would like to see, and you can be certain that no 2 types of developer would agree on the requirements.

      O
      osgood_
      Legend
      June 30, 2017

      The problem is serious developers don't want to use Dreamweaver because it has gained a 'tarred' reputation - mostly caused by those who I would desginate 'beginners or amatuers'. It's like asking Lewis Hamilton to use a Robin Reliant for racing. No matter how you try and repair the Robin Reliants reputation its still treated as a bit of a joke car. I think Adobe if they are too target serious developers need to have a rethink and come up with a different paid-for product where it can keep the softwares reputation intact by effectively working hard to close out 'part-time' players. ie you need more skill to use it.

      Unfortunately there's no money in it given the huge amounts of free software and the financial returns that Adobe look for so it will never happen, that will be left to the smaller company to provide serious developers whilst Adobe will continue to aim these kinds of products at the mass market hoping to maximise their return. For the mass market the product is very efficient and effective as it provides an easy way for the mainly unskilled to use a few extensions to arrive at some kind of 'acceptable' result.

      C
      cdeatherage
      Inspiring
      June 29, 2017

      I don't consider myself anywhere near the same league as Paula, Nancy, Os, Peran, Ben, Ron, Jon, Murray, or several others I'm forgetting at the moment. I do, as Peran suggested above, generally check in with the DW forum every day to see what new discussions have arisen, largely for my own education. There are fewer and fewer topics posted that compel me to click the link to read, and often when I do, it's really to read what you Wise Ones have to say. [Maybe I'm the only one who wants to know what you Wise Ones have to say. ] My workflow is such currently that I've not needed guidance or troubleshooting help, and in the last month, I've probably responded to only one actual OP question.

      Chris

      pziecina
      pziecinaAuthor
      Legend
      June 29, 2017

      This wise one says -

      "relax, drink a good glass of wine, and suddenly all problems disappear".

      My though for the day

        Nancy OShea
        Community Expert
        Nancy OSheaCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        June 29, 2017

        Oh sure I've noticed.  The quality of questions & the skill level of people asking them has dropped quite a bit.

        I suspect many questions are from older DW users who happily used Design View for years to maintain  static, table-based sites.  When you're set in your ways, forced changes to workflow must feel like an outrageous imposition.  So I understand where their frustration comes from but I don't feel like I can make the struggle any less onerous unless they want to hire me to rebuild the site for them.  Doing the work takes far less time and anguish than trying to explain it all to an unskilled designer.

        Teaching everything one needs to know about modern web design + the new interface in CC 2017.x goes beyond what the typical user forums and Adobe Getting Started Tutorials are able to provide.   Perhaps some people have come to terms with that and given up or moved to other solutions at Lynda.com, DMX Zone or WordPress, or drag & drop tools like Muse.

        As for the  "my Adobe is broken" posts.  Those are inevitable with each new CC update/upgrade.  DW isn't the worst offender but it's up there with PP, AE and ID.  A contributing factor may be inadequate equipment, a faulty set-up and/or computer illiteracy.  Based on my experiences in the other forums, I can tell you that some people should not be allowed to own a computer.   It's simply not in their DNA.  

        Nancy

        Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
          pziecina
          pziecinaAuthor
          Legend
          June 29, 2017

          The problem i find with the lack of basic knowledge displayed by more than a small number of users, is that one becomes very cautious about posting solutions that are outside the basics. Not just in this forum but in others, we both know how difficult it is to explain to users how Photoshop images should look on hi-dpi monitors, (i think one thread is now over 600 posts).

          I know i complain about Dw, but i'm complaining about it being stuck in the past, not about it changing to modern requirements. I think you said it in a discussion Nancy, and it summed up my thoughts, "if you want Dw to work like sublime, use sublime".

            O
            osgood_
            Legend
            June 28, 2017

            I think its been changing for a while now with considerably less footfall than there used to be. I don't know why that should be. Some say its because the forum can be searched better now for questions and answers of a similar nature to those being sought.

            Questions regarding general front-end coding are few and far between these days as more seem to taking up the drag and click options available. I'm not sure the final result is what the user really wants but I think in this forum we are dealing with users who are more readily accepting of what they get as a result of drop, drag, point and click, its  a better than nothing attitude. As a result, this in itself, reduces the need to ask code questions which might have been unavoidable in the past.

            Things are obviously changing, dependent on how you view yourself as a web-developer. I no longer view this forum as a serious hang-out for real developers but more for those that just want to 'play-arround' with a program that perhaps is represenative of the calibre of people using it.

            I just look for the odd 1 or 2 posters who I consider to be open to suggestions when better solutions/workflows are proposed and am more than willing to spend time working through those suggestions with them which hopefully will result in them actually learning in the process.

            Obviously not currently using DW any longer lessens the  ability to help with questions directly related to DW issues. More time for me to eat ice-cream

            pziecina
            pziecinaAuthor
            Legend
            June 28, 2017

            osgood_  wrote

            I just look for the odd 1 or 2 posters who I consider to be open to suggestions when better solutions/workflows are proposed and am more than willing to spend time working through those suggestions with them which hopefully will result in them actually learning in the process.

            Obviously not currently using DW any longer lessens the  ability to help with questions directly related to DW issues. More time for me to eat ice-cream

            I did consider writing a couple of tutorials for the forum, instead of just answering questions, but when I looked at support for doing what I considered in Dw 2017 I dropped the idea. Asking Dw users to use another program to do simple tasks, then switch back to Dw, with the 'this file has been modified' message appearing every time was not a good idea, plus they would then have to download that 'other'  program.

            As for no longer using Dw, I don't think that is a problem, as many of the complaints have me wondering if I am stuck in some kind of time warp. The questions I have seen so far regarding git in Dw, I can honestly say I anticipated being posted, which probably comes more from knowing how some developers are actually coding front-end now than anything else, but I am surprised no one anticipated them from the Dw team, and that they did not have ready prepared answers.

            O
            osgood_
            Legend
            June 28, 2017

            pziecina  wrote

            The questions I have seen so far regarding git in Dw, I can honestly say I anticipated being posted, which probably comes more from knowing how some developers are actually coding front-end now than anything else, but I am surprised no one anticipated them from the Dw team, and that they did not have ready prepared answers.

            Hummm........I'm not good with stuff like GIT or Grumpy or whatever its called these days. If a program doesn't install ALL the components needed its no use to me as I'm not the kind of person who is going to download some extra files which then have to be installed via the command line or terminal. I cant afford to risk upsetting my set-up just to use something which I can do without. As far as I can read you have to install a GIT client on your computer before anything will happen in Dreamweaver is that correct?

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