Inspiring

Question

Getting rid of unwanted precision

Forum|Forum|17 years ago
September 19, 2008
14 replies
1321 views

I'm generally enjoying InDesign after many years of holding out with PageMaker, but one thing I haven't found convenient about it is its apparent tendency to give the user more precision than he wants, needs, or can use. If I want a tab at 7mm and try to place one there, for example, ID will give me one at 7.188 or something like that, and then I'll have to go into the dialog box and manually delete the unwanted fractional value.

Now I'm starting with ID scripting, and right at the beginning, in one of the first specimen scripts of the ID scripting tutorial - namely "ImprovedHelloWorld.applescript" - I'm getting this in an apparently excessive degree, with for example 27.699999999946 and 17.999999999994 as results, rather than the normal, desirable, legible and manageable 27.7 and 18.

Can anyone give me any advice on how to weed out this extraneous and unwanted precision, perhaps in the program at large as well as on the scripting side of it?

Thanks,

Roy McCoy
Rotterdam, NL
ID CS3, OS X 10.5.5, MacBook Pro

Scripting

This topic has been closed for replies.

S

sstanleyau

Inspiring

On 24/9/08 9:59 AM, "Roy McCoy" <member@adobeforums.com> wrote: > Yeah -- why encourage Windows? It's more the fact that I do a lot of scripts that talk to more than one app -- js in near-useless for that because of the proprietary nature of the js engine. -- Shane Stanley <sstanley@myriad-com.com.au>

R

Roy McCoyAuthor

Inspiring

On Sep 24, 2008, at 1:24 AM, Shane Stanley wrote:

Well, I'll admit to not understanding that. Any base-10 integer can be

represented as a binary numb er, right? I wouldn't immediately

understand, then, why decimal values can't be similarly represented.

Think about how you represent the fraction 1/3 as a decimal -- you can't
*exactly*.

That's right -- but at this point, having learned that the extra decimal

points are apparently unavoidable, I feel like Forrest Gump about it:

"That's all I have to say about that."

Shane Stanley, wow. I don't suppose you've gone over to JavaScript.

No. I don't see the point.

Yeah -- why encourage Windows? :-)

Thanks,

Roy McCoy

Rotterdam, NL

R

Roy McCoyAuthor

Inspiring

On Sep 23, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Dave Saunders wrote:

There are two issues here: what's presented in the interface and what goes on "under the hood." This is the scripting forum. By definition, scripts are dealing with "under the hood" data. So, even if the interface issues were all worked out to your satisfaction -- and it seems to me that one great leap forward would be for the text boxes to be large enough to accommodate the values -- in scripts, you should expect to see the unrounded values.

Yeah, I suppose I simply wasn't generally getting such values in my PM scripts other than that "Get and Log Dimensions/Crops" one, or I would have noticed it more. But it was a different degree of precision. You got millimeters to three decimal places in scripts (which I rounded to two, the maximum in the PM interface and sufficient for my general DTP purposes). Now in ID three decimal places is standard in the interface (thus more precision than I want -- sorry), and you get twelve in script results. I'm still inclined to wonder whether anybody really missed the extra nine when they scripted PageMaker, and if not why there has to be so much apparent clutter with ID. But okay, I'll expect to see it nonetheless, thanks for the confirmation and the support on my gripe about the text boxes in the tabs dialog and perhaps elsewhere. My preferred solution for that, however, would be to go back to the clunky old PM precision of one or two decimal points or provide it as an option, rather than enlarging the boxes.

Roy McCoy

S

sstanleyau

Inspiring

On 23/9/08 10:46 PM, "Roy McCoy" <member@adobeforums.com> wrote: > Well, I'll admit to not understanding that. Any base-10 integer can be > represented as a binary numb er, right? I wouldn't immediately understand, > then, why decimal values can't be similarly represented. Think about how you represent the fraction 1/3 as a decimal -- you can't *exactly*. > Shane Stanley, wow. I don't suppose you've gone over to JavaScript. No. I don't see the point. -- Shane Stanley <sstanley@myriad-com.com.au>

_

_Dave_Saunders_

Inspiring

Roy,

There are two issues here: what's presented in the interface and what goes on "under the hood." This is the scripting forum. By definition, scripts are dealing with "under the hood" data. So, even if the interface issues were all worked out to your satisfaction -- and it seems to me that one great leap forward would be for the text boxes to be large enough to accommodate the values -- in scripts, you should expect to see the unrounded values.

Dave

R

Roy McCoyAuthor

Inspiring

On Sep 23, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Shane Stanley wrote:

Roy, you keep calling it "precision", but in fact it's a representation of the exact opposite: the fact that some base-10 numbers can't be represented with precision as binary numbers.

Well, I'll admit to not understanding that. Any base-10 integer can be represented as a binary number, right? I wouldn't immediately understand, then, why decimal values can't be similarly represented.

And in any event I still think it's unwanted precision, whatever's going on under the hood -- at least in the tabs dialog, even if you wouldn't want your scripts returning overly sloppy approximations. Doesn't anyone agree that it was a comparatively welcome convenience to be able to get a tab at a millimeter or half-millimeter interval, and to know that's what you were going to get when you clicked on the tabs ruler? Now, even if you're using the apparently preferred picas and points, you still have to work a lot more to get that same simple result, if you insist on continuing to try to do it with the ruler.

Shane Stanley, wow. I don't suppose you've gone over to JavaScript.

Thanks,

Roy McCoy

Rotterdam, NL

S

sstanleyau

Inspiring

Roy, you keep calling it "precision", but in fact it's a representation of the exact opposite: the fact that some base-10 numbers can't be represented with precision as binary numbers. -- Shane Stanley <sstanley@myriad-com.com.au>

R

Roy McCoyAuthor

Inspiring

A new message was posted by jongware in

InDesign Scripting --
Getting rid of unwanted precision

Also note that the measurements you see on the screen might be re-calculated from the internal measurements (I seem to recall ID uses points internally, but that hardly matters).

Right, that's what I just now noticed while replaying to Dave. Presumably the tab ruler isn't necessarily the only place ID does this.

The issue of a wanted "exact" precision might bite you back in some unexpected ways. For example, if you place an object at "2cm,2cm", it may appear in the document as "2.000001cm,2.000001cm" because of internal rounding. Now, if you want to check if it's still there some time later, hey, there is nothing at "2cm,2cm" (fortunately, there are other ways to identify objects not based on their exact position).
The same happens all the time with Word imported documents, where in the UI you can see a text indent value of "24pt". Well, that's already rounded, as you cannot search for this 'exact' indent of 24pt -- checking with a script reveals it to be, for example, at 23.9947658(etc.).

Thanks for the warning, and the confirmational "That's what ya gotta put up with."

Roy McCoy

Rotterdam, NL

R

Roy McCoyAuthor

Inspiring

A new message was posted by Dave Saunders in

InDesign Scripting --
Getting rid of unwanted precision

The precision is a result of base 2 (binary) numbers and base 10 (decimal) numbers not mapping "precisely" on to each other. They're something you have to live with and accommodate in your scripts.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but after reading this I still continued to suspect that it might have something to do with using metric measurements rather than inches or picas and points. So I set up a US Letter page with measurements set to inches. Rather to my surprise, the behavior was precisely the same, with again strings of undesiredly overprecise values.

So I guess you're right, but why is it this way in InDesign and it wasn't in PageMaker? I don't think I could have missed it if it was that way in the earlier program, since though I wasn't really an expert PM scripter, I nonetheless had maybe hundreds of PM scripts and... well, okay, it did happen, I now re-remember, and I had to do some rounding (see my old Get and Log Dimensions/Crops PM script, below). But I think the precision was less excessive and obtrusive, like maybe two or three decimal places rather than four or five.

And it didn't do it with the tabs ruler -- that really continues to irk me. I finally concluded that it simply doesn't make sense to try to use the ruler when you know where you want to place your tab. Enough of this "But I don't want 4.0217, I want 4 on the nose" and then having to go and type it in -- better to just type "4" in the first place.

Oh, now I finally see what it's doing. It's providing ruler tabs in points no matter what your measurement units are, and displaying the points precisely in millimeters or whatever. You can get even inches, half inches, and quarter inches, so there's some pro-inch discrimination after all. But what really drives me nuts about the excessive unwanted precision in the tab dialog is that not only is the value unwantedly precise, but you can't even see it. When I click on the ruler and get a tab at 34.572 mm, for example, I can't see the 34, just the .572 mm. Admittedly, hitting the up/down arrow keys rounds the tab setting right off and you can quickly adjust a tab using that.

Ah, I realize now that when I first saw your name on this topic, I mistook you for Roy Marshall who does use JavaScript.

Oh yeah, Roy Marshall, I used to go out with his sister. :-)

If you're comfortable with AppleScript then stay with it. I switched to JavaScript partly because I could never come to grips with AppleScript whose statements and partly because JavaScript is cross-platform.

I wouldn't say I was comfortable with AppleScript, but I will stay with it at least for the time being. For one thing, the current version of QuicKeys is well integrated with it, and I'll probably want to script some non-Adobe apps.

Nice to see you again (now I've worked out who you are!).

Thanks and hyperlikewise.

Replies by email are OK.

Well, it still isn't Compuserve with MacNav, but at least you apparently can now follow a thread without having to go to the web.

Roy

*******

GET AND LOG DIMENSIONS/CROPS

-- Run on copy, not on original, but be sure to save latest version first.

-- Turn off facing pages before running.

-- If rounding off doesn't work, apply "Get and Log Cs/Cs Roundoff"

-- If "invalid state" alert, look for hidden layer and delete from copy

-- (but wasn't 05/02/04, when appeared to be because of grouping).

--This is an evolving script to automate the acquisition of dimensions of

--placed graphics. Use on copy, not on original, to avoid problems with

--facing-pages switch. Corrected to handle PICT and EPS

--as well as inline ( but kl 00 - ?). Loops to 500, generally unnecessarily

--so abort when it's found all periods and delete the one at the

--end along with unneeded graphics listings.

sub doittoit

if drawnum = -2

select lefttopx, lefttopy

else

select drawnum

endif

getlinkinfo >> filename, ...

filename = filename / ":"

--now create myar variable, which simply registers sides w/crops

myar = ""

getimageframe >> imageleft, imagetop, imageright, imagebottom

getcroprect >> cropleft, croptop, cropright, cropbottom

if not(imageleft = cropleft)

myar = myar + "left "

endif

if not(imagetop = croptop)

myar = myar + "top "

endif

if not(imageright = cropright)

myar = myar + "right "

endif

if not(imagebottom = cropbottom)

myar = myar + "bottom "

endif

if myar = ""

logappend " Great Royzito:linked/cropped images.log"

log "page " + quote(x) + ":" + ^(tab) + filename(len(filename)) + ", " + quote(zstrip((righttopx- lefttopx) / 10)) + " x " + quote(zstrip((leftboty - lefttopy) / 10)) + "; not cropped"

logend

return

else

logappend " Great Royzito:linked/cropped images.log"

log "page " + quote(x) + ":" + ^(tab) + filename(len(filename)) + ", " + quote(zstrip((righttopx- lefttopx) / 10)) + " x " + quote(zstrip((leftboty - lefttopy) / 10)) + "; cropped " + myar

-- Following line doesn't work, because device units rather than mms

-- + quote(zstrip((cropright-cropleft) / 10))

logend

endsub

sub incrementprevious1

textcursor +char, 1

delete

textselect -char, 1

gosub incrementprevious2

endsub

sub incrementprevious2

getstorytext 0, 0 >> theprevchar

switch theprevchar

caseof "0"

textenter "1"

break

caseof "1"

textenter "2"

break

caseof "2"

textenter "3"

break

caseof "3"

textenter "4"

break

caseof "4"

textenter "5"

break

caseof "5"

textenter "6"

break

caseof "6"

textenter "7"

break

caseof "7"

textenter "8"

break

caseof "8"

textenter "9"

break

caseof "9"

delete

textselect -char, 1

gosub incrementprevious2

break

default

endswitch

endsub

suppressautosave on

measureunits millimeters, millimeters, default

getpagenumbers >> startpage, numpages, ...

getpageoptions >> doublesided, facingpages

pageoptions doublesided, 0

logbegin " Great Royzito:linked/cropped images.log"

log "List of Linked/Cropped Images with Dimensions in Centimeters" + ^(cr)

logend

loop x = startpage, startpage + (numpages - 1)

page x

getobjectidlist >> numobjects, objectlist

deselect

loop n = 0, numobjects - 1

set objectlist >> objectid, maskid, groupid, drawnum, type, transformed, linked, lefttopx, lefttopy, rightbotx, rightboty, righttopx, righttopy, leftbotx, leftboty, objectlist

--now "doittoit" for all TIFFs (6), PICTs (8, 9) and EPS (11)

if type = 6

gosub doittoit

endif

if type = 8

gosub doittoit

endif

if type = 9

gosub doittoit

endif

if type = 11

gosub doittoit

endif

endloop

logappend " Great Royzito:linked/cropped images.log"

log "."

logend

deselect

new

import " Great Royzito:linked/cropped images.log"

place column 1 left, column top

printoptionsps 2, 0, 0, 1, 1, off, 0, 0, 0, 1

printpaperps "A4", "Lower Cassette", 297, 210, 0, 0, -2, 0, 0, 25, 0, 1000, 0

select 30m, 30m

try editstory

textcursor -story

FindParaAttr "Any", -3, -3

FindTypeAttr1 "Any", -3, -3, -3, -3, -3

ChangeTypeAttr1 "Any", -3, -3, -3, -3, -3

ChangeParaAttr "Any", -3, -3

--errorchecking on

--FIX SCRIPT HERE (?)

try changeall "0.99", "1.99"

try changeall "1.99", "2.99"

try changeall "2.99", "3.99"

try changeall "3.99", "4.99"

try changeall "4.99", "5.99"

try changeall "5.99", "6.99"

try changeall "6.99", "7.99"

try changeall "7.99", "8.99"

try changeall "8.99", "9.99"

try changeall "9.99", "OOPSIE-DAISY!!!"

textcursor -story

loop x=1, 500

try find ".", currentstory, stopatend, anycase, allinstances, clear

try findwindow close

--message "OK to here? Period selected?"

textcursor +char, 3

textselect +char, 1

getstorytext 0, 0 >> thechar

switch thechar

caseof "0"

textcursor +char, 1; delete

break

caseof "1"

textcursor +char, 1; delete

break

caseof "2"

textcursor +char, 1; delete

break

caseof "3"

textcursor +char, 1; delete

break

caseof "4"

textcursor +char, 1; delete

break

caseof "5"

gosub incrementprevious1

break

caseof "6"

gosub incrementprevious1

break

caseof "7"

gosub incrementprevious1

break

caseof "8"

gosub incrementprevious1

break

caseof "9"

gosub incrementprevious1

break

default

endswitch

endloop

delete

textcursor -story, 1

find "OOPSIE-DAISY!!!"

--errorchecking off

suppressautosave off

Peter Kahrel

Community Expert

All the more reason for a tweak to the Find/Change dialog. You should be ablt to search for e.g. "indents smaller than 24 points", or "baseline shifts other than 2 points". Submit the requests!

Peter

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