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Typothalamus
Known Participant
September 6, 2025
Question

Impasse working with/preparing for pre-press and separations

  • September 6, 2025
  • 3 replies
  • 749 views

Engrossed in producing our first 4-color offset book, a lengthy volume on architectural history and the built environment, forced, by circumstance to attempt to execute this at the highest level possible, comparable to anything by, e.g., Taschen, Prestel. Have spent years in development, negotiating image usage rights and all this entails, partly with grant monies, but largely supported by our press. I've had extradinary referrals on assistance in the area of separations (color separations and accurate translation to print), but am in quite a bind now. WIthout getting too bogged in the details, I'll bullet some areas:

▪ Printing with be in Latvia at Livonia Print. They run Heidelberg presses and have done, for example, the recent volume Carla Scarpa: The Complete Buildings for Prestel (London), exemplifying the quality they are capable of
▪ Printing on Artic Volume White stock, 130gsm
▪ The printer refers out to exactly one pre-press repro house, in Sweden
▪ The Swedish repro firm began work and at a surprisingly resonable price was producing results that, though needing some additional refinement, would've been nearly ideal because (as was only later understood) of their close working relationhip/ integrated workflow with the printer, something I had yet to appreciate fully. But the Swedish pre-press, due to an upcoming month-long holiday and perceived overly harsh critque of their Epson proofs, retreated and could not, at any cost and despite many attempts, be regained. This proved a torpedo to the workflow and would set us back months, interviewing other pre-press/repro houses in Germany and the US, then restarting the job with one, only to learn that we had had the best option in Sweden. The new pre-press proved disappointing without the attention to detail we expected, and at a far higher cost. After a month and a full set of Epson proofs with them, we cancelled. 

I returned to Taipei, attempting to engage a notable pre-press here, but without success. I've been kindly referred to a couple of the best separations experts in the US, yet this would cost in the $20-30K range, outside a feasable budget. But their admiration of the architect garners some very minimal consultation at no cost. As you may see, this is not a normal publication, but something of a legacy publication and passion. The impasse now is handling pre-press/ separations, and accurately reproducing and treating the images as required.


I have multiple questions.

The printer insists that they use only the Fogra 51 color profile, a standard EU color profile. The paper stock producer, however, has its own specific color profile for for the stock.

All the images procured over months and years directly from archives and photogrpahers are intimately familiar to me, and after seeing them in hundreds of Epson proofs, I know exactly the aesthetic direction and adjustments sought. But I cannot execute this techinically, not at the level that ensures accurate translation on press, and so the required specialists are needed, particularly with separations, a foreign art to me.

Local trusted retouchers are on hand, able to get the aesthetic direction right with me, at least in RGB before conversion to CMYK. But I/we cannot translate this accurately or with any assurance to files that will do what's needed on press. This is the realm of other experts, separators.  

What do others think of proceeding with the following plan?

1. Execuate all needed adjustments to images in RGB first.
2. Proceed either to do automated separations/conversions in ID for the pdf output; or have another pre-press/repro house here in Taipei try to enact the right curves to match what we have in RGB in CMKY on press. Do Epson proofs as needed.
3. Print at least one scatter wet proof. A scatter proof may be sufficient as a guide to what results we're really getting. on press 
4. Do the print run. I may attend, but not sure how, with my level of experience, I can guide/wrangle results there. 
5. And, backing up, I'm on an older version ID, CS6. Would using its automated conversions to CMYK (at the pdf output stage) be less capable than later versions?

Aplogies for the length. One way or another, this must come through. 

3 replies

Brad @ Roaring Mouse
Community Expert
Community Expert
September 9, 2025

"The printer insists that they use only the Fogra 51 color profile, a standard EU color profile. The paper stock producer, however, has its own specific color profile for for the stock."

It's the profile the printer wants to use that matters. They have calibrated their workflow to that so to use a different paper profile may actually do more harm than good.

At the printer i used to work for, we created custom profiles for our different presses on a selection of standard stocks we would use, and provide those to our clients, when required, but these would only be slight deviations from standards like FOGRA and GRACOL (our standard was GRACOL).

 

 

Typothalamus
Known Participant
September 11, 2025

Thank you, Brad. Speaking directly with Arctic Paper, the European paper stock producer, and knowing of their tailored profile for this unique stock, naturally raised a question of whether it may be best. Thanks for clarifying that the bottom line is the printer's profile and their chosen callibrations. Appreciate it. 

BobLevine
Community Expert
Community Expert
September 7, 2025

Randy's right. Your entire post is filled with completely unnecessary details which is quite likely to get you less help.

 

And please, stop adding links to your post. They're not only unnecessary, they're a bit on the spammy side.

Typothalamus
Known Participant
September 11, 2025

"The post is filled with unnecessary details" as opposed to "your entire post" and "completely unnecessary" would've conveyed the message fine. Links were not intended to be spam - they linked what I felt were relevant info, specifications, and examples under discussion. Didn't see links proscribed in guidelines and was unaware outsiders could edit. Again, it's a complex history I've tried to distill, without perfect success, but bearing many of the relevant details. Apologies. I'm on the edge.

Randy Hagan
Community Expert
Community Expert
September 6, 2025

In short,

 

  • Talk to your printer. Have their prepress operations prepare your job. They know their capabilities best, and likely produce beaucoup quality work for their own presses. For whatever reasons, it sounds like you've burned bridges with the best prepress house supporting your printer. By now, you're realizing you're not going to find anybody better. If your printer wants the job, they'll find ways to prep files to run it the best way they can. Make life easier and put it all on their shoulders.
  • Get a contract proof. Make sure that both you and your printer understand that you expect the final job to match the final contract proof exactly. If the first proof isn't acceptable, lather-rinse-repeat until it is. Do not sign off until you and your printer are both clear the final contract proof is what you expect.
  • Sit on the job. You and a production professional want to watch the pressrun, seeing press sheets continuously through the production run. Bring your contract proof. Be prepared to argue your case professionally if you're not seeing what you expect on the press sheets.

 

With all due respect, all the rest is needlessly complex. Making your life and everything around this job needlessly complex. Work with your printer, agree on a contract proof and monitor the press run. And have an experienced production pro at your side. A production pro can help you set genuine and consistent production expectations throughout the process, and advise you what can be done to get the results you want.

 

I'm sure this is a labor of love. But you're making it unnecessarily hard on yourself. It's impressive that you can scan the world to find the highest quality prepress operations. But putting it with your printer, and having a production pro at your side to help you trust and verify the process, should get you the best results and definitely make your life a lot easier.

 

Good luck,

 

Randy

Typothalamus
Known Participant
September 8, 2025

Greatly appreciate your response and consideration of the issues, Randy. The printer indicates their pre-press services are limited, necessitating we manage much of it elsewhere. However, the stratetgy of "rinse-and-repeat" interations until getting the results desired, and then holding the printer to the contract proof's results, is advice we'll be following. Thank you. Can I ask:

1. Are InDesign's automated CMYK conversions/separations adequate, srtong enough to avoid a need for a dedicated external separations expert (particularly if we can check and iterate through Epson proofs and a scatter wet proof)?

2. Have ID's auto CMYK conversions meaningfully improved between CS6 to now, or are we fine with CS6?

I'll work to locate a veteran production pro who can be more at my side. The ones who I've had some interaction with, particularly while still under the impression that a dedicated separations expert is called for, are booked out and $$$$$. I'm not readily aware of where to seek others but will find a path, yet if suggestios come to mind, please don't hesitate. 


Randy Hagan
Community Expert
Community Expert
September 8, 2025

I hate to say this, but you may find that letting your printer work with that prepress house instead of you doing so directly will help speed the job. They know how to work with each other, and maybe can do that for you if you leave it between themselves.

 

Now, on to your specific questions:

 

1) My background is in publications, where pleasing (as in good looking, but approximate and imprecise) color is the standard. The most precise standards I've had to meet would be the occasional picky advertiser who either a) needed to have precise color representation or b) knew the materials provided wouldn't support it, and planned to use that as a bargaining chip after the ad was published. I could get by with soft proofing with no issues.

 

You, on the other hand, are looking for precise, art book-quality reproduction. I'd suggest that for your purposes, you cannot use soft proofing. There are too many variables for you to honestly get an accurate soft proof on your computer screen, independent of the calibrated and synchronized process your vendors use to ensure accurate color on your screen. Separation proofs may not be necessary if in fact you can afford to run a couple rounds of contract proofs of the entire book, and use those to precisely define and direct what you expect for a final result. Look into your pricing with your printer to see if that's an economical course of action.

 

2) InDesign's auto CMYK conversions haven't meaningly improved since CS6, but you're identifying the wrong steps in the process. Your color correction/adjustment is likely being done in Photoshop or some equivalent image manipulation program, and that's where your focus should be. InDesign is only the hopper you're pouring all those disparate original elements into to create your book. Not only that, but I'd strongly suspect that if you asked your printer, they'd prefer you to submit your images, and place them in your InDesign layouts, as Apple or Adobe RGB formatted images and let the pros handle the color correction and conversion for your book. Once again, I think that your contract proof for the entire job will be the place to determine how well that's been done, and let the pros do the voodoo they do to get you the best results.

 

3) I understand that hiring a pro at color reproduction can be spendy. But that pro, who ideally will be someone trusted by both you and your printer, will save you a ton of money in the long run. They will be able to translate what you want from the printer, and will be able to explain precisely to you what can be done to get you the results you desire. It's like that old bromide: "Why is there never enough time to do things right, but there's always plenty of time to do it over again?" 

 

That trusted production pro can not only define and refine the standards to get the results you're looking for from your printer, but perhaps smooth the turbulent waters that are causing all the churn hindering how your prized project will be produced. By the time you get through this process, you may well find that buying that professional's time isn't expensive but invaluable.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Randy