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James Gifford—NitroPress
Legend
February 23, 2025
Question

KEEPing it simple — fix the Keep menu!

  • February 23, 2025
  • 3 replies
  • 401 views

Based on a post from yet another terminally confused novice today, and too many over the years, I present trivial UI fixes for comment and possible action:

 

Confusing as hell to novices, not unknown to trip up more experienced users. Looks like the checkbox controls both keep options, leads to hours of rage when paragraph lines won't behave as expected:

 

5 minute fix that probably doesn't even require a full testing protocol, clearer if still not as perfectly clear as it could be: 

 

10 minute fix, would likely require testing cycle but essentially eliminates the confusion by even a brand new user:

(Maybe default to/limit lowest number of lines to 1 just for an added sparkle of clarity?)

 

Absolutely zero actual functionality/core code change required with either. All just UI layout and hooks.

 

Maybe a visiting Employee can pass this along, saving a tedious year of marinating in the Suggestions box.

3 replies

Mike Witherell
Community Expert
Community Expert
February 24, 2025

In general I agree with this idea. Personally, I would put the Keep with Previous last at the bottom end of the dialog box, because its use is rarer.

Mike Witherell
James Gifford—NitroPress
Legend
February 24, 2025

Well, endless refinements but any of these changes would be about 176% more time than was put into the layout in the first place. It looks like way too much of the "mirror the code" settings, terminology and thought I had to argue against back in the days when I worked more closely with what we used to call programmers.

 

Not sure that frequency of use is a strong factor; making it Previous/Next follows logical layout thinking. And an overall rethink of the panel to integrate Previous/Together/Next would be worth considering as well.

 

But mostly, I just want to stop banging my head on the desk when I hit each new post of "Why won't that last line stay in the first column? I've checked EVERYTHING!"

Scott Falkner
Community Expert
Community Expert
February 24, 2025

The added checkbox is not only superfluous in the third image, it’s confusing. If that’s not checked willl the paragraph not keep with the next zero lines? What does it mena to not keep with the next zero lines. Just leaving it at zero accomplished the task.

Dave Creamer of IDEAS
Community Expert
Community Expert
February 24, 2025

I would "gray out" the line numbers until the check box is activated. That would make it clear what option the line numbers refers to.

 

 

David Creamer: Community Expert (ACI and ACE 1995-2023)
James Gifford—NitroPress
Legend
February 24, 2025

Excellent gloss, but now we're up to a 15-minute fix, which means v26.0. 🙂

Community Expert
February 24, 2025

Now that you mention it - it's not really bothered me to be honest. 

 

But I can see the benefits of making it clearer.

James Gifford—NitroPress
Legend
February 24, 2025

Well, to me this is an outlier among ID's many small faults. It throws many, many newcomers — we see some variation of "why won't my paragraph stay together" at least once a week. It has been known to throw the more experienced here, who don't think of the setting (or, sometimes, notice it in screen caps!) until several rounds of suggestions for fixes. It may not reach the level of a critical flaw, but it's persistent and frustrating and completely opaque until a user simply "learns" that the two settings are wholly independent, not interactive as the UI suggests.

 

And it's a case where there is no functional flaw or bad implementation or fault in the features themselves — both keep-prev and keep-next work about as perfectly as they could be asked to.

 

So it's all down to a badly designed snip of UI that does not make it clear that the two settings are independent. The fix is entirely on the cosmetic end, with one tiny improvement possible by making Keep-With-Next a specific toggle and not a murky "inherent" setting

 

That everyone here with some degree of experience knows all this is not any reason for this not to have been fixed long ago, because it's still collecting trophies from among every new/learning wave of users.