Skip to main content
S
Suripanta
Inspiring
September 14, 2018
Answered

Pantone output with same ICC profile differs between InDesign and Photoshop

  • September 14, 2018
  • 2 replies
  • 4462 views

Hi, let's see if someone else who also has a good understanding of color management could provide another analysis of this:

A certain file for professional printing in CMYK space (no spot colors) should include certain Pantone swatch. Accurate color output will depend on how we manipulate the Pantone. Let's get on it:

1. New INDD is set in CMYK, profile is FOGRA39.

2. A new Pantone swatch (any) is added, format is LAB spot. Resulting swatch is applied to object (eg a box).

3. Same Pantone swatch is chosen, but now format is made into a CMYK process swatch. Resulting swatch is applied to another element for comparison purposes.

3. File is exported through a PDF preset that honors FOGRA39, colours DO convert to destination.

Then...

1. New PSD is set in CMYK, profile is FOGRA 39.

2. Same Pantone swatch is chosen from same Color Book as done with the INDD. Resulting swatch is applied to object (eg a box).

3. File is exported with the very same PDF preset that honors FOGRA 39, as done with INDD, and thus one of both INDD swatches (Lab or CMYK) should match.

Result: I open both PDF. Inspect colors. They do not match. I am yet surprised to discover that one should still distrust INDD native capability to convert a Spot into CMYK through a ICC profiles during PDF export. I assumed this was fixed, as reported by the popular indesignsecrets.com

My opinion is: trust Photoshop CMYK values, and discard INDD. Photoshop values are natively made into the desired ICC profile, while INDD works differently (colors are either converted or not to your desired ICC when exported to PDF).

Any other opinions are welcomed

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer rob day

I'm not seeing the problem here.

I think there are some other variables that you have to watch out for. Even if the ID and PS documents have the same CMYK profile assignments, you still have to make sure the Conversion Options match—Engine, Intent, and Black Point Compensation can affect the Lab to CMYK conversion:

Also, if you are exporting to PDF there is the possibility of further conversions during the export, and the measurement over in AcrobatPro could be affected by the Simulation Profile chosen in Output Preview.

Here I'm converting an out-of-gamut color PANTONE Orange 21, and a neutral color PANTONE Cool Gray 8. The ID and PS values match (the Photoshop 8-bit sample gets rounded)

I can export both docs to PDF/X-1a, which by default sets the Simulation Profile to document CMYK and both values still match:

The Photoshop PDF

The InDesign PDF

2 replies

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
September 14, 2018

Also, ID has the option to make the Lab conversion to CMYK via Ink Manager. There has been a problem with the way Ink Manager converts Pantone tints, so I never use it and prefer to make the conversion via the swatch. See this thread:

Re: Ink Manager Bug/Problem?

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity ExpertCorrect answer
Community Expert
September 14, 2018

I'm not seeing the problem here.

I think there are some other variables that you have to watch out for. Even if the ID and PS documents have the same CMYK profile assignments, you still have to make sure the Conversion Options match—Engine, Intent, and Black Point Compensation can affect the Lab to CMYK conversion:

Also, if you are exporting to PDF there is the possibility of further conversions during the export, and the measurement over in AcrobatPro could be affected by the Simulation Profile chosen in Output Preview.

Here I'm converting an out-of-gamut color PANTONE Orange 21, and a neutral color PANTONE Cool Gray 8. The ID and PS values match (the Photoshop 8-bit sample gets rounded)

I can export both docs to PDF/X-1a, which by default sets the Simulation Profile to document CMYK and both values still match:

The Photoshop PDF

The InDesign PDF

S
SuripantaAuthor
Inspiring
September 14, 2018

Hi Rob, thanks for time and your reply.

- No Engine, Intent, and Black Point Compensation​ has been used, because there is nothing to convert. I am not using one profile then "converting" to another: files have been set from start with the FOGRA39 profile and CMYK space color.

- Any conversion during the export is handled by the same PDF preset with same ICC profile and thus should be equal.

- I do also distrust the Ink Manager and do the conversion via swatch.

I have repeated your experiment with the same Pantones you suggested and yes: they do match. But then I repeated with my Pantones: 7701C and 362C.

InDesign first:

The Photoshop:

Then used the same PDF preset and checked with Acrobat the blue:

I also did with the green. Yes: there is a slight difference, but not as noticeable. Not as much as it was today in the morning. But while I was testing, I found something:

My InDesign is somehow altering the color profile. I would set it in FOGRA 39, it will automatically change it without asking to another. I would have made a video to show you how weird this is, but believe me: I have been in editorial since 2001 and worked extensively with InDesign for over 15 years and never saw such thing. First I thought it was because Bridge was not synchronizing Color Settings across Adobe CC. But I did the sync and still InDesign is acting weird, and actually it is not the first time - a few days ago I had to reset settings because it was not recognising Color Books neither.

I created a new Color Setting from InDesign and then it stopped changing to another ICC.

So, if someone else is reading:

- There can be slight differences with some Pantones when converted into CMYK in InDesign and Photoshop - and this might even happen if you're carefully following the same procedure. Pantones are tricky and were not created to be handled in CMYK!

- Make sure your InDesign is not acting weird and altering your Color Space (like mine is doing).

- Check your CMYK colors twice, it's alright.

Thanks,

RICO

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
September 14, 2018

No Engine, Intent, and Black Point Compensation has been used, because there is nothing to convert.

With the current versions there is a conversion because the Pantone libraries are defined as Lab in both apps, so there's going to be a color managed conversion from Lab to CMYK, and the Color Intent as well as the destination CMYK profile will come into play. Lab color has no profile because it is and abstract color space, which is device independent.

You can see the affect of the intent on Pantone 362 (Lab 58|-41|46) using Photoshop's Color Picker, which is managed by Color Settings when there are no docs open.

With Absolute Colormetric as the intent, and BPC Off the conversion is to 72|6|100|0

With Perceptual and BPC turned on the conversion is to 74|17|100|3. Both examples have FOGRA 39 as the Working CMYK space. Note that the Lab values are the same in both cases.

I have repeated your experiment with the same Pantones you suggested and yes: they do match. But then I repeated with my Pantones: 7701C and 362C.

Seems to me that you are getting a match, but are not allowing for Photoshop's rounding. You can get a more accurate reading in PS by setting the dropper samples to 32-bit and multiplying by 100:

Samples set to 32-bit:

You still can't expect it to be exact because color in ID is always 8-bit per channel

Terms & ConditionsAccessibility statement
Using the community Terms of use Privacy Cookie preferences Do not sell or share my personal information ad choicesAdChoices