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Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024
Question

Cross hatching appears in a scanned black and white image

  • March 13, 2024
  • 8 replies
  • 1054 views

Cross hatching appears in image when exported as tif or printed but not visible in Library or Develope module when viewing in LRC. The more sharpening I use the stronget it gets. I normally use 50 sharpening, Radius 1 Detail 25 on all my prints. The file is a scan from a negative on an Imacon scanner and I have printed many, many other similar negative scans and have not had this issue. This particular image has had a lot of adjustments made to it, dodging and burning. I am using  Mac book pro OS Ventura 13.4 and LRC  13.2. I have tried it with the graphics processor on auto  or off.

 

[Moved from ‘Bugs’ to ‘Discussions’ by moderator, according to forum rules. A ‘bug’ is not just another word for a software problem.]

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8 replies

Conrad_C
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 13, 2024

To illustrate some of the concerns here: On the right side of the picture below is a detail from my own scan from typical black-and-white negative film. If you compare the two, you can see that in the scan on the left, somehow many of the intermediate gray tones are missing, and there is a prominent stipple type of pattern. I also looked at a scan of a portrait on high contrast black-and-white slide film and even that isn’t as posterized as the image on the left.

 

When you re-scan the image, specifically check the bit depth setting, because scanning software terminology can be confusing and misunderstood. What you are looking for is to save a grayscale image, and you want to verify that whatever the setting is called, it’s saving at 8 bits per channel or 16 bits per channel. Some scanning software has an option labeled “black and white” which literally means black, white, and nothing in between (one bit per channel, or on/off). That 1 bit/channel setting is intended for text/line art documents, not photos, and if used on photos, the scanning software may translate gray shades into literal black and white by applying a dither pattern. The “cross hatching” you see does suggest a moiré pattern caused by pattern interference. I am able to see the moiré pattern in your original file on my display. (How visible a moiré pattern is depends on the difference between the frequencies of the pattern in the pixel grid of the image and the pattern in the pixel grid of the display or printer, so the pattern may be more visible or less visible depending on the display and printer.)

 

By the way, do you know what the film stock is? Is this the same type of film you’ve scanned before, or is this a special graphic arts type of black and white film?

 

Participating Frequently
March 20, 2024

Dear Conrad, thanks for all your information and everybody else who posted. I will re scan this image. It was originally taken with Trix film. I do see there is some of the cross hatching if I look deeply into the original, but I can't understand why since the only film I ever shot was tri-x and I have over 1000 scans and I've never seen this happen before. The other strange part is I can make a beautiful print from the scan which unfortunately has this cross hatching in it. I will rescan with sharpening off, which is what I usual do, and I will make sure it's 16 bit which I also always do. The original file is 355 MB.  The drag is the shot was the first one on the roll, because I had very little money at the time I tried to milk every frame out of every roll, and there is an imperfection, emultion scrape in the middle of the image which I had had to photo shop out. The images is also over exposed 1-2 stops, what my exposures are off and all over the place since I worked very quickly. Anyway, I do appreciate everybody's time and effort. Thank you

Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024

Thanks for all the information. Rescanning will be difficult, and I am not sure necessary. If I take the image that was corrected in LR with the 10 masks and export a tiff (or print) I see lines. If I make a virtual copy of the file and do a reset so that there are no masks and export a tiff, there are no lines even if I add sharpening. If I click off all the mass and export from the corrected version I still see lines. Very Odd. I guess I wilhave to go back to the original scan and try again. 

D Fosse
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 13, 2024

What I don't understand is why you want to sharpen this?

 

Refer to my 100% screenshot above. Sharpening won't have any effect on the image as such, you're just sharpening the grain/noise. All you have here is black dots on white background, and sharpening the dots isn't doing any good.

Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024

So Strange, I check my output settings and they are exactly the same as you use. 

Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024

Hmm. Well the bottom line, is of course it is coming out on the print. I Don't see the lines in LR or PS, and only after I export it as a Tif do I see it on the monitor. It could be doiing something with my monitor but would not concern me much if it didn't show up on the print, but it does. 

Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024

I thought I already posted this but I am not seeing it in the thread. I am posting again. Thank you for you help. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/purclami5mhor276ifk0v/5212.1.-Edit.dng?rlkey=5g398p1njyigycewx5wqse34u&dl=0

Here is the DNG. I can open the file in PS and don't see and of the cross hatching there until I save a tif. Even without sharpening there is still some faint cross hatching. I have scanned other black and white negatives with the same camera and film and scanner and never had this issue. 

Inspiring
March 13, 2024

Thanks for sharing. I was curious so loaded your DNG in LrC 13.2. I use a calibrated Asus Pro Art monitor and can't see any moire/cross hatching in either LrC or in the exported TIFF when viewed in Windows Photo Viewer.  I'm not sure if Photo Viewer is showing the TIFF file or embedded JPG preview. I mention this because depending on the viewer, you may be viewing the embedded JPG preview in the TIFF.

In case it makes a difference, here are the EXPORT settings I used

Here's a screen grab of approximately the same as you posted. This was taken on a cheap ACER secondary monitor but again, no moire.

 

D Fosse
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 13, 2024
quote

The more sharpening I use the stronget it gets.


By @Nicholas26902923jzk0

 

This kind of thing always boils down to some kind of moiré (interference patterns) between two sets of pixels - either image pixels : screen pixels, or original pixels : resampled pixels.

 

I see this is an extremely grainy image, which will exaggerate the effect, and obviously sharpening will exaggerate it further.

 

But please do as Per suggests and share the original if possible.

Per Berntsen
Community Expert
Community Expert
March 13, 2024

If you don't mind sharing the original, export a DNG  (which will include all your edits).

If the DNG is smaller than 48 MB, you should be able to attach it to a post.

If attaching doesn't work, put it on Dropbox or some other file sharing service and post the link here.

Participating Frequently
March 13, 2024