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_Peter_Mars_
Participating Frequently
October 31, 2007
Question

Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

  • October 31, 2007
  • 680 replies
  • 62136 views
This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete
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    680 replies

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    A
    Anonymous
    November 16, 2007
    One little thing to add. I revisited g ballard webpage, the one with the test images with roll-over comparisons of different colour settings.

    Regarding this one:

    "If your monitor is profiled to 2.2 gamma and 6500 degrees Kelvin, there should be minimum change in the Untagged sRGB rollover. Any JPEG color shift you do see on screen is the difference between your monitor profile and the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 color space."

    I do not see any colour shift, suggesting that my monitor is in fact calibrated to 2.2 gamma and 6500 K. Am I wrong, and if so how?

    Side question: If the untagged sRGB image is...untagged, why is it still referred to as sRGB?

    Thanks
    A
    Anonymous
    November 16, 2007
    I really struggle with the tone of your postings Mr. Ballard. On one hand, you are one of the only people here who are offering any suggestions at all, and you seem to be some kind of colour management guru...on the other hand it comes along with a generous dose of condescension and arrogance. Which is a paradox, considering the fact that you are, after all, making an effort to help someone, even if (my impression is) you think I'm a bit dumb. Pardon me, but I simply have to vent a bit about that. I remain, as ever, grateful for the time you have spent trying to help me, in your own way.

    I never said anyone SAID that anything differing from sRGB is a bad profile...this is my interpretation of what some comments have been. Call it a faulty interpretation if you wish. It is based on your suggestion to test for a bad profile by using sRGB as my monitor profile.

    The difference I see going into SFW is exactly the same effect as if I take an sRGB tagged image and "Assign" my SpyderNov1 monitor profile. It's as though photoshop is saying "an sRGB tagged image will appear this way on your monitor's color space (which has a wider gamut than sRGB) after the profile is removed". This is the case, as I've seen when viewing my resulting JPG in Safari.

    My impression right now is that Apple Cinema Displays display fairly accurate colours when using a color profile that is close to sRGB. For these Dell monitors perhaps, a more extreme departure from sRGB is required to display accurate colours. (I hope your response won't simply be "you are wrong" with no further illuminating insights.)

    I must ask once more...does it mean nothing that the colours on my screen match the colours on my hard-copy proof?

    I can try contacting Colorvision with this issue, and take your suggestion to limit the scope of my communication to them. Apart from that though, is my desire to fully understand what is going on here. In that case, details are important to me. You say I am confusing myself, well the point of me being here is to overcome this confusion and come out the other side with a good understanding of what's happening here.

    Sorry for another wordy post. Just trying to be clear.
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 16, 2007
    > I don't see the "Contrast" adjustment

    Push the "menu" button on the bottom edge of the monitor >Brightness & Contrast is next to the "Exit"

    Ok, I just received the replacement HueyPro, and I have re-installed everything and made a new profile from scratch. View>Proof setup>MonitorRGB ...Same saturation boost as before. Nothing has changed.

    I also made a new profile with the Apple Calibrator, I started with sRGB..2.1, and ran through the process fairly quickly. I again tried the View>Proof setup>MonitorRGB and I still get the saturation boost.

    I think I will just smash this F'ing Monitor! It can't be anything else! Anyone want to buy a Dell monitor cheap?
    A
    Anonymous
    November 16, 2007
    Peter, I have the same monitor but I don't see the "Contrast" adjustment. Is it under a different menu?
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 16, 2007
    Raven .... thanks for detailing this problem so perfectly. The resulting comments and advice have made much more sense to me after your presentation of the problem.
    I am presently functioning on Faith until my replacement puck arrives and hopefully solves this once and for all.... if not, EBAY for mister HueyPro!

    Regarding the Dell 2407 WFP-HC and preliminary settings... here's the settings I have found that seem to help with saturation, brightness, contrast, etc.

    Under the "Color Settings" Menu:
    Color Settings Mode > PC Mode
    Color Adjustment > PC Custom Color
    Red Adjust=80
    Green Adjust=85
    Blue Adjust=90

    Under the "Brightness & Contrast" Menu:
    Brightness=25
    Contrast=85

    I used the Apple Calibrator and left the B&C settings as is above.

    Brightness controls Black Level and Contrast actually sets the brightest white, or so it appears. I have created a very precise grayscale RGB step image that goes from 0 to 255 in 5 unit increments (R=G=B). With the above B&C settings I am able to discern every level of gray with no problem... very impressive actually. Your mileage may vary.

    Precision Gray Scale in CS3 PS format (sRGB...2.1)

    Thanks to G Ballard and others for your persistence and patience!
    _
    _g_ballard_
    Participating Frequently
    November 16, 2007
    >> I'm skeptical that they'll be willing to help me on this,

    Why?
    >> since as far as they are concerned, my screen display matches my hard copy proofs, so the monitor IS calibrated correctly...for print work at the very least.

    Don't talk about this, it will only confuse them and the issue as it is confusing you.
    >> any shift from sRGB in the monitor profile results in a "bad profile"

    No one said that.
    I said a slight shift is expected, and you are complaining about an "extreme" shift if I recall.
    >> Is there no way to have accurate print and web colours within one shining golden hallelujah brother amen monitor profile?

    Everyone one trying to help you here is using a profile like this.
    >> "unchecking ICC Profile option?! BTW, unchecking it strips the profile." I did not check that, and that shouldn't affect the appearance within SFW, should it?

    Of course it will, checked it will be displaying sRGB converted to MonitorRGB, unchecked it will be applying MonitorRGB.

    I think your best option is to call ColorVision, stick to my one test, and let them explain why it is not working (don't even mention your other theories, because the one test nails your problem).

    Good luck.
    A
    Anonymous
    November 16, 2007
    "Call colorvision..."

    I'm skeptical that they'll be willing to help me on this, since as far as they are concerned, my screen display matches my hard copy proofs, so the monitor IS calibrated correctly...for print work at the very least. This is my feeling too. It's just when it comes to web work that there is a missing link.

    It still seems to me like it's being suggested that any shift from sRGB in the monitor profile results in a "bad profile". Or at the very least that SFW will only function correctly if sRGB is the selected monitor profile. Is there no way to have accurate print and web colours within one shining golden hallelujah brother amen monitor profile? I mention this again in the hopes that it will be addressed. Thanks again and again for any help offered. Looks like g ballard is getting pretty tired of this.
    A
    Anonymous
    November 16, 2007
    "What about unchecking ICC Profile option?! BTW, unchecking it strips the profile."

    I did not check that, and that shouldn't affect the appearance within SFW, should it? It will affect how the image appears in Safari but not other browsers.

    "Since you already Converted to sRGB, the SFW "convert to sRGB" default setting is meaningless..."

    It SHOULD be meaningless, but as I said, I am getting a major saturation boost taking an sRGB image into SFW...which should not be the case.

    "Based on this test, I would say you have a bad monitor profile..."

    Again, does it mean nothing that my screen appearance is confirmed accurate by using a calibration test image and accompanying colour-accurate hard copy? Any of the default monitor profiles (sRGB, the default Dell profile, Apple RGB, etc.) do not display accurately on this monitor.

    You've also suggested (I think) to test for a bad profile by choosing sRGB as my monitor profile and then testing in Photoshop. I have done this and, yes, there is no colour change in SFW then. However, the colours are not displaying accurately using sRGB for my monitor profile, so what's the point of that? If any deviation from sRGB in a monitor profile results in this kind of "wrong" behaviour in Photoshop, that what's the point of calibration? Am I making any sense people? (And PLEASE don't say "the answer is in post #29" or "you're not listening" or "you don't get it, just forget it".)

    If it was up to me I'd be using an Apple monitor, which I've had no problem with before and behaves the way I expect it to. This Dell is supposedly a competitor to the Cinema Displays, so I'm having a hard time believing it's just a crap monitor.
    _
    _g_ballard_
    Participating Frequently
    November 16, 2007
    >> Adobe RGB image --> SFW (uncompensated colour selected) with "convert to sRGB" checked..."Original" window in SFW looks very close, JPG version (highest quality setting) looks oversaturated. If I uncheck sRGB, it looks very close.

    What about unchecking ICC Profile option?!
    BTW, unchecking it strips the profile.

    Since you already Converted to sRGB, the SFW "convert to sRGB" default setting is meaningless, so it makes no sense that checking or unchecking it in SFW would shift the color.

    It appears we are still off the same page...

    +++++++

    However,
    >> Using an sRGB image, I do indeed see a major saturation boost when I choose Monitor RGB for the Proof Setup. It looks exactly the same as if I Assign Profile > SpyderNov1 (my calibrated monitor profile).

    Yes that would be expected since MonitorRGB="SpyderNov1 (my calibrated monitor profile)".

    Based on this test, I would say you have a bad monitor profile (or a monitor that doesn't like custom monitor profiles, or again a defective puck) -- this has come up before and this test is conclusive to make your point, IMO.

    Call colorvision -- you need say nothing other than what you just said if you can stick to this one point -- ask them what you may be missing and let them do ALL the talking, don't let them confuse the issue past this one point) -- this is my best and final point on this.
    _
    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 16, 2007
    These are exactly my same results... on 2 systems!
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