Premiere Elements 7 crashes and freezes ->unusable

I hope this doesn't sound cynical but, if Vegas handles AVCHD more efficiently, who not use Vegas?

The biggest challenge with Premiere Elements and AVCHD is that the program edits these files natively, rather than using a proxy (a lower-resolution working file). This is why it demands so many more resources than some other programs.

I think I've linked you to a way to force the program to create a proxy above. And it would be a real bonus if Adobe incorporated proxy editing into the next generation of the program, in my not so humble opinion.

I do not have these issues with Nero or Sony's Vegas products on the same machine and using the same AVCHD files form a Sony HDR-SR11.

-jim

As I understand it, the fact that other programs are still responsive does NOT indicate that PE is not out of resources. The OS hands out 4GB of virtual memory to EACH program (split 50/50 between the app and the system) regardless of how much RAM vou have. So PE can chew up its 2GB and run out while another app still has plenty of virtual memory left. This may or may not be accurately reflected by Task Manager or other utility.

I used to think the program was buggy too. And in fact, I still do. But that belief is moderated by the slow realization that it is simply too resource-intensive when working in a 32 bit environment and editing highly compressed HD projects. I suspect many random bugs and crashes are in fact resource issues that are not immediately apparent to the user due to how PE uses resources and reports back to the user. For example, back when I was struggling with PE3 and h.264, it was rock solid until Task Manager reported that memory usage had reached about 1.4GB for any reason. After that, it was all bets off and if it reached 1.5GB, it was almost certain to crash or freeze (almost always without any warning). When rendering you could watch the memory usage creep up slowly but steadily and I'll bet that things like the dreaded "The software used...." error was in fact a resource issue.

Since I do shoot in h.264 (Sanyo HD700) and AVCHD (Canon HF100), I'll put it on my list to do some experimentation and see if I can come up with some decent guidelines. I run XP Pro (x32) and Windows 7 (x64) so I can play in both worlds. And I now have enough AVCHD material in the can to easily crash it so maybe I can get a handle on what is OK and what is not. I could also use some input from anyone who understands it re: what exactly Task Manager is reporting when it shows "memory in use".

I'll also play with the proxy editing workaround mentioned above. That might be the best approach until a 64 bit version is released.

And yes, I agree with Jim that FAR better information needs to be published by Adobe so users know what they can and cannot do with the system they have. Adobe has that information. Failing to publish it (or waiting until WE generate it) only leads to frustration and dissatisfaction after the purchase. I stand by my earlier statement... I am sure a very common scenario these days is.... customer buys an AVCHD camera, goes on vacation, comes home, loads the vacation videos into PE because it says he can.... he has at least the minimum system, right? And PE chokes because it can't handle an hour of AVCHD. The veteran users here (who generally don't shoot in AVCHD) repeat over and over how to do various work-arounds. But that only adds to the frustration when we find out we can't do what we thought we could do.

I have looked (I think) at all the other affordable editors (including some Linux solutions) and I still am totally convinced PE is the best of the best. That is, after all, why I am still here. Small comfort though when I can choke it while editing 30 minutes of AVCHD ;)

So if I can't fix it or get Adobe to fix it, I'll become part of the solution and at least see if I can develop some guidelines.

Paul

The program needs to accommodate the 32 bit system and there are ways to work around virtual memory (like using program swap space). I have an editor that will open any sized file as an example.
In my case, it is a 64bit machine but the OS is 32bit as that is what shipped on the machine.

If there is a limit on the size of the project, then it should be stated on the box.

All most any program will work if you open it and do not do anything; but the utility is a bit diminished.

And in paid for software, regular freezing and crashes are unacceptable.

And as stated, there is no one point where these crashes or freezes take place. They appear to be random. The sysinternals process monitor shows the OS is NOT out of resources and other programs are responsive.

IMHO the program is buggy.
-jim

I'm with you, Hunt. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution for AVCHD editing. But, Paul, if you want to propose a FAQ on the subject, I'll be glad to publish it to our permanent collection.

One simple solution to working with bulky AVCHD video is proxy editing, a feature Premiere Elements doesn't have built in but which Muvipix's Robert Johnston wrote this hack for.
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b726ee

Proxy editing means that you edit a lower resolution "work print" of your hi-def or AVCHD video. When it comes time to output, the effects and cuts you've applied to the proxy will be applied to the native HD or AVCHD footage.

Paul,

That sounds like a logical request. I'd help out, but unfortunately do not shoot, nor do I edit, AVCHD to test. I'm not sure whether Steve does, or not. Maybe other forum members could offer their observations, plus the users on Muvipix.com.

It would have to be a YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) situation, because there could be a lot of other considerations like what programs, besides PE are running. Still, I would think that some real world generalizations might help. If nothing else, it might give an indicator of when one should consider breaking a Project apart, into discreet pieces, etc.

If you could put together some of your observations, regarding Duration, etc., I think it would be a good step. If there are enough usable reports "from the field," I'll bet that Steve would gladly add an abstract of them to the FAQ. I'd be glad to help him assemble the data, but I just cannot report it - yet.

We'll see what Mr. Steve has to say. He knows how to contact me and I'll do all that I can to help him.

Hunt

Yes, the FAQ is there. But it does not address real world requirements and limitations like what I posted above. I'm talking about a listing of what it really requires to edit a certain amount of h.264 or AVCHD video, not generic recommendations. Or conversely, with x amount of RAM / virtual memory available, you can expect trouble past y amount of video.

For example, my desktop is a 3GHz C2Duo with 4GB RAM running XP Pro SP3 (x32). Plenty of horsepower, supposedly. It is pretty zippy and PE7 has no trouble at all with AVCHD..... until its memory requirement exceeds the 2GB virtual memory available to any given application in a 32 bit OS. And that can happen without warning and with as little as 20 minutes on the timeline, especially if I want to do a menu structure.

The FAQ does not address 32 bit memory limitation at all, and I suspect THAT is the biggest problem when AVCHD editing fails with a freeze or crash. In my opinion, how much RAM or what processor you have primarily affects system responsiveness. The true limiting factor is that AVCHD editing with PE requires a LOT of virtual memory. Even what many users would call "small" projects can easily exceed what is possible on a 32 bit system. Come home from vacation with an hour of AVCHD, drop it onto the timeline and do a DVD menu structure and I'll bet you run out of virtual memory regardless of how much RAM you have. I don't think many camcorder owners would call that excessive. Adding this to an FAQ will at least clue people in to watch memory usage.

Paul

That FAQ, re AVCHD, has been there since last September, Paul. ;)
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b699a8/8

Steve and Hunt,

Wouldn't it be a good idea to add an FAQ, separate from all others, that discusses the demands placed on the system by h.264 and AVCHD projects? Merely pointing out that "it is best" to convert to DV-AVI doesn't play well with people (like me) who expect the software we just bought (from a major software company) to work as advertised. PE7 is marketed to people with cameras using h.264 and AVCHD formats. I think it is understandable why people like me are primed to vent when the first response to a report of PE crashing while editing AVCHD is to say that we need to edit in another file format. While that is a very valid work around, it doesn't sit well after reading on the box that PE7 supports AVCHD.

An FAQ that outlines the real world processor and memory requirements to edit various lengths and number of clips is a more direct (and less frustrating) way of getting the message across. Wouldn't hurt to include a section on RAM, virtual memory and the constraints of a 32 bit OS on a resource hungry app like PE. I don't know much but what I do know, I learned while trying to get PE to work ;)

Perhaps also run a thread to collect the experiences of people like me who edit these formats to get a better handle on real world system requirements?

As a start, my experience is that with PE3, you are potentially in trouble whenever Task Manager reports more than maybe 1.4GB in use (whether or not PE reports that it is low on resources). That rises to around 1.8GB in PE7. If you enable the /3GB switch (and your system still boots), that rises to maybe 2GB or more. Running PE7 on Windows 7 (x64), PE can use close to 4GB (as reported by Task Manager) before it gets flakey. This is independent of the amount or RAM in the system. These are approximate figures, but with more input data from other users, a better picture should emerge. Armed with this data (and with Task Manager open), users could edit with greater confidence.

Too bad Adobe ISN'T listening.... adding a simple resource monitor to the main app would probably eliminate a lot of these issues. Whether or not some subroutine reports that it is out of resources, the main app should be able to query the system and give advance warning.

Paul

Well stated Steve.

In my years on these fora, going back to before there was even a Premiere program, I find that if most people would state their hardware specs, their OS and any other programs running, their Asset and Project specs, plus exactly what they are doing, when the problem occurs, they would get a lot more help and get it much more quickly.

The time and space spent "venting" could be put to much better use. Also, there are probably many, who could help, who just pass up a rant, rather than try to help the OP work though their issues.

As I've stated elsewhere, the vast majority of the problems are system/OS/other programs, Assets next, OE next and then real Bugs way, way down the list. CS4 might prove to be the exception to that ratio though.

I would also expect a new version that is fully 64-bit compliant to be in the works. Unfortunately, folk still using 32-bit (depending on backward compatibility) will then scream that Adobe has abandoned them, like the SSE2 instruction set of a couple of years ago.

Last, and I'll end MY "rant:" when approaching a problem, tagging onto a post with "hey, I have the same problem," is not enough. One may have the same problem, but it may not stem from the same circumstances. Please post all info. Making a responder read back through a thread to find out what another poster had for system/Poject/Asset specs. is not likely to yield much help.

Help us to help you,

Hunt