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dparsons85
dparsons85
Legend
June 15, 2022
Answered

Colorspace and playback on PC vs Mac / Broadcast vs YouTube

  • June 15, 2022
  • 3 replies
  • 5003 views

PC users, what video player do you use? The Windows Movie and TV app? Windows Media Player? PotPlayer? If I were on a Mac I'd just be using QT player like everyone else but the lack of a standard video play on PC is rather annoying. 

 

My main issue is the "fix" for desaturated colors from Premiere exports (described here) doesn't appear to be working for me on every app. I exported a H.264 from Premiere and the colors/levels looked correct in PotPlayer but looked washed out in the Movie and TV app and also looked washed out when watching on box.com using the Edge browser. 

 

I know there's a LUT (QT Gamma Compensation.cube) that Mac users can apply to their exports to correct for this but according to the video linked above that's not necessary for PC users. Only problem is if I apply the LUT to my export then my video will probably look correct when viewed on Macs, on PCs in the Movies and TV app and on box.com but incorrect when viewed on PCs in the PotPlayer app. 

 

I suppose wheather to appy the LUT or not is dependent on where the video will ultimately be viewed correct? If my videos is going to Youtube, Snapchat, or basically ANYWHERE other than broadcast I assume I want to add the LUT when exporting. If my video is going to broadcast I do not apply the LUT. Does this sound right?

Let me know what you'd do if you were exporting a video for YouTube for a 6 month exclusive and then it's going to broadcast after that. 2 different exports? Both Rec 709 but the YT one exported with the QT Compensation Lut? 

 

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer dparsons85

Yeah but I can't make sure everyone who watches one of my videos on YouTube has their OS colorspace set to Rec 709 2.4. When publishing to the web I think it's important to meet people where they're at - which is to assume they're using the standard OS color space and didn't change any settings on their apps. 

The LUT being destructive is fine - the H.264 going to YouTube will be made from a ProRes HQ file without the LUT so I'll always have the uneffected Rec 709 file if necessary. 

I've tested this on a couple devices and apps:
Looks good with LUT (not perfect but close enough to what I see in Premiere):
  • Windows - Firefox
  • Mac - Safari
  • Mac - Chrome
  • Xbox - YouTube through the Edge browser (weird that it looked good here but not on Windows)

 

Still a little washed out with LUT:

  • Windows - Chrome
  • Windows - Edge


Here are some screenshots of the differnces on my computer (Windows):

 

Full Res shot: https://i.imgur.com/0es8Jrf.jpeg

The LUT isn't perfect but looks way better than the washed out non-LUT version. This is a simple solution that seems to get it close enough. If you have any suggestions or other things to try let me know - if not, I'll probably just use this method.

3 replies

chrisw44157881
chrisw44157881
Inspiring
June 20, 2022

The quicktime compensation lut is pretty janky and imho should not be used because you are essentially burning in a color change. What mac uses should really do is set their OS's colorspace to Rec. 709 2.4.  What you should really use is a color 'tag'.  Most browsers use Rec. 709-A which is a variation gamma of 1.96. And Most cloud based video players use 16-235 levels. Also, your monitor's full range or video range needs to match your video card settings. 99% of monitors are video range only, either due to the firmware signal support or the HDMI interpretation at hardware level.  So, as you can see, there's a lot going on, both hardware and software, and color metadata. As for media player, even the decoders they use affect color. for example, you can set VLC to OpenGL only which can give different luma values. or quicktime player uses 1.96 gamma.  So remember to always export with embedded colorspace and gamma metadata. This is also the same recommendation for resolve.

    A
    Andy 1968
    Inspiring
    June 20, 2022

    Chirs,

    I agree. That is why I always say.  DSLR and Mirrorless cameras have an HDMI port to be connect to a TV. Playing your video clips from a camcorder to a TV will be a better and more accurate representation of what the video should look like as opposed to seeing the video on an iMac using Quicktime or a Dell laptop using OBS or Windows Media Player. There are so many settings that could be set incorrect on the Mac or PC. Not so much with a generic TV or AV monitor. 

    By default Premiere Pro on a computer screen should match what the camcorder looks like on a TV more or less. In other words it will not look funky.  With 3rd party hardware it will match 100% correct. 

      A
      Andy 1968
      Inspiring
      June 17, 2022

      You are on the right track but I think it is better to use an adjustment layer (video link below) as opposed to applying a LUT during export. An iMac and Quicktime are not industry standards and never will be. You have an OS, GPU settings and software programs to worry about. Your TV does not have all that. What does your camera look like when you connect the HDMI cable to a TV? Premiere Pro, Media Composer, Resolve and all the other professional NLEs will look identical to your camcorder when connected to the same TV using 3rd party hardware. The different programs might look a tad bit different on the computer screen but they will look identical if played on the same TV using 3rd party hardware. If you plan on doing work for broadcast 3rd party hardware form Blackmagic Design and AJA is money well spent. I left a video link below that demonstrates the power of 3rd party hardware. 




      A
      Andy 1968
      Inspiring
      June 17, 2022

      For Nvida cards it is best to set dynamic range to full. 

      R Neil Haugen
      R Neil Haugen
      Legend
      June 17, 2022

      I do not know of a single colorist or color management expert suggesting basic use of 'full' for Rec.709/SDR media/video.

       

      ESPECIALLY if there is broadcast possibility ahead ... total QC fail at that point.

       

      Properly set systems will DISPLAY video/legal/limited range as 0-255 when set to expect legal range media. And will also  at the same time display the full RGB 4/4/4/4 media as 0-255.

       

      Correctly.

       

      Neil

      Everyone's mileage always varies ...
      R Neil Haugen
      R Neil Haugen
      Legend
      June 15, 2022

      There isn't any one-size-fits-all answer ... sadly.

       

      When Apple chose to apply their odd 1.96 gamma to Rec.709 media, it pretty much flummoxed everything up. Well, worse than it was already.

       

      Why?

       

      You can't expect to 'see' a file the same when different systems apply different gamma/CM settings to the same file. And there's no way around it. Macs apply 1.96, the rest of the world is either 2.4 (broadcast, TVs, many PCs) or 2.2 (typical web use, some PCs).

       

      On the Mac ... the ColorSync CM utility sets that gamma, and all "color managed' apps allow ColorSync to control things. Including the QuickTime Player and Safari and Chrome browsers.

       

      But ... VLC player and Firefox can be set to ignore ColorSync, and may actually use gamma 2.4 on the Mac. So they will look closer to a broadcast or 'web' view than QT, Chrome, and Safari. On the same computer.

       

      Yea, that's a right mess.

       

      And as to no 'standard' player on PCs, well ... on PCs, CM depends on how you have each app setup, really. Or your monitor/GPU settings.

       

      But hey, there isn't a solid color standard that all TVs are set to either ... outta the box, the image from TV to TV will be all over the place. Saturation, brightness/blacks/hues ... all over the place.

       

      So ... colorist's learn you grade to the main professional standards, and then ... just let it go Out in The Wild and fuhgedaboudit. As the old saying goes, "You can't fix gramma's green TV".

       

      I would add ... any professionally produced media you watch on the Mac in QT has that 1.96 gamma applied ... and I can guarantee you it wasn't GRADED to 1.96, nothing is.

       

      So ... the media you see on your system isn't shown even close to how it was graded. Have you noticed?

       

      Probably not ... because as that's the way everything appears, it looks 'natural'. Weird but true.

       

      Neil

      Everyone's mileage always varies ...
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