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julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019
Question

panning judder

  • May 16, 2019
  • 11 replies
  • 6638 views

I have read previous threads about the issue of judder on camera pans, and tried out the solutions suggested, but I still have a problem.  In fact I've noticed there's judder on the panning in many commercially-produced films, so this seems to be a long-lasting problem. 

I'm a beginner really with Premiere, so maybe I'm missing something simple - I hope so!  I am trying to produce a video in which slow pans are a central feature, and am getting nowhere.  I am using a Sony 6300a shooting XAVC S HD at 50fps and 50p 50M.  When I play back through the camera I get the smoothest beautiful pans imaginable, but any playback through the computer, either the original file or exporting it through Premiere, gives judder which is completely unacceptable.

I've tried changing the sequence settings as recommended, changing the frame rate to 25 for instance, but nothing helps.  The fastest frame rate available seems to be 60. 

I've also tried exporting it in various codecs, none make a difference.  I imported Apple ProRes as that was recommended to me, but I can't it back even on something like VLC.  (I wonder if there's something wrong, as exporting to ProRes422 HQ gives me a file size for a 19 second clip of over 800KB which is massive.

This topic has been closed for replies.

11 replies

Legend
May 17, 2019

I don't know how to help without narrowing down things step by step sorta. Like, first shoot something the least challenging to any computer ( the easiest thing for any computer to play ).  After shooting that sample ( a few seconds of panning is enough) put it from SD card into HD. Play it in VLC or something like that.  See what happens.

There's too many variables and unknowns for me cause I'm not a professional troubleshooter etc. to just guess what is going on.

warrenr9740958
Inspiring
September 7, 2021

was this ever resolved as i have exacly the same issues.

thanks

Legend
May 16, 2019

https://helpguide.sony.net/dsc/1530/v1/en/contents/TP0001091751.html

=============
try this setting

===============
1920x1080 25p 16M
8 GB: 1 h
16 GB: 2 h
32 GB: 4 h 10 m
64 GB: 8 h 25 m

==============

I'm assuming you are NOT in the U.S. and your power grid is 50Hz.

So shooting 25fps is good for you.

Format your SD card ( which erases everything )
choose this setting above

Shoot test...  5 seconds...

tell us what happens...AFTER you move files from SD card to your DATA DISC.

Your SSD should be used only for O.S. and programs.
Your Data disk ( probably called drive D ) is the mechanical HDD ( i TB ).

Make a folder on the data disk called SOURCE FILES and dump everything from SD card in there for now.

julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019

so yes I did that.

the only 1080 25p 16M option was called MP4 - what that actually means in this case I don't know.  The XAVC option only had a higher spec - 25p 50M (or higher).

I should do a much more rigorous test, but hand-held, the playback from the D drive is still juddery - which is much more noticeable when played back on a large monitor.  But it's not as bad as the XAVC S HD material I have.

Oddly, I noticed that even with an HDMI cable coming out of the computer but not connected to anything, there was mare judder on the laptop screen...

Legend
May 16, 2019

===============

Yes, the video is recorded to an SD card, which plays fine in the camera.

I am then copying the files to a SSD in the computer.

When I play back from the computer it judders, on the Windows player and also on VLC

===========

OK. Thanks !  It is possible that your computer is NOT powerful enough to play the material you are recording from the camera.

Before even going down that road ( what you are actually recording in the camera ) can you tell me what options you HAVE to record stuff in your camera ?

For example, can you record 4k ? Can you record 1080p ?

julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019

yes, the camera can record 4K but I have been using XAVC S HD which is full HD,  50p and 50M at 50fps

I"m not an expert but I'm told the computer is powerful enough - after all, it's a gaming machine.

Legend
May 16, 2019

with regard to your real problem, we are starting at the very beginning... long before you upload your stuff or watch anything on internet.

We first want to make sure that you are recording stuff from you camera properly.

Legend
May 16, 2019

the juddering you see on my clip ( Tom Sample) is because your download internet speed isn't fast enough to see it smoothly. It sometimes needs to 'buffer' ( your computer ) the file you watch on internet.... Like, sometimes if you play the same clip twice ( after first one judders ) then the second attempt will play smooth ( due to buffering the file inside your computer ).

That's fairly normal so don't worry about it. Just play it twice is usually the solution to watching videos online.

Legend
May 16, 2019

we have to narrow down your questions into segments that make sense to everyone. So we are on the same page.

First off, are you recording video to an SD card

Yes / no

Secondly, are you copying those files on the SD card to an internal HD or SSD in your computer

Yes / no

Thirdly, after you copy the files to your computer from the SD card ( take out the SD card if you're not sure if you are still trying to use it after moving files to computer ) … does it play OK in VLC ?

Yes / no

Let's start with that ...

julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019

Yes, the video is recorded to an SD card, which plays fine in the camera.

I am then copying the files to a SSD in the computer.

When I play back from the computer it judders, on the Windows player and also on VLC

Legend
May 16, 2019

move the files from SD card to your internal HD or SSD in your computer. Copy SD files to your hard drive inside the computer.

Once you have that done, play them with VLC and see how it looks.

Nothing plays or edits well from SD cards inserted into computer port.

Legend
May 16, 2019

Mostly, describe how you are shooting it to begin with... your source material and wrapper and codec and frame rate and so on... just as a beginning...  after THAT it's about matching settings in the editor etc...

This is a fast motion ( with panning etc. ) sample... from film projection at 24 fps to TV broadcast...uploaded to YouTube...

You'll see the inside fence doing some stuttering... but that is mostly from the conversion. I sincerely doubt the projection in theatre had that effect... just introduced later in broadcast...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx533GIKhZU

At about 1:58 the white inside fence verticals stutter a bit.. but I think it's because of the conversion from 24fps projection to TV standard ( 30 fps .. adding 6 frames per second for broadcast ). This YouTube thing was not captured and posted from a projection obviously.

I think the camera operator knew this fence thing would be weird when converted and tried to frame it out...

julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019

I was using a Sony 6300a shooting XAVC S HD at 50fps and 50p 50M. 

I have doing slow pans, dark trees against snow, so any judder is really noticeable (especially when projected - and I'm trying to get good quality here), and the twigs clearly stutter the whole time across the screen.

Inspiring
May 16, 2019

What was your shutter speed? We work with the A6300 frequently and do not see pronounced judder in pan shots.

Can you describe the computer you are using and how you have the media storage configured?

MtD

julianm78132012
Participating Frequently
May 16, 2019

Hi MtD

the shutter speed was 50fps

the machine a Dell Alienware #Intel(R) Core i7-65OOU CPU at 2.50GHz  2.6 GHz

16GB RAM

64-bit

running WIndows 10 Home

I'm not sure how the media storage is configured - how do I tell

thanks

Inspiring
May 16, 2019

50fps is not a shutter speed. That is the frame rate. A shutter speed is something like 1/48, 1/60 1/125 . . .

If you are shooting at a shutter speed that is substantially higher than the frame rate, each frame will have a much sharper appearance - and some of the natural blurring that occurs as the camera is panned will not occur, and the pan will appear to have a much more staccato appearance.

MtD

Legend
May 16, 2019

My impression is that you have two things going on..

1) shooting (recording ) settings that satisfy you ( what you get out of the camera natively )

2) editing and export to final product for viewing or delivery.

I suggest you deal with the shooting part first. When you get stuff out of camera ( I assume it's an SD card ) put it on an internal hard drive and play it on VLC and see what you got.

You only need to shoot 3-4 second TESTS to do this painstaking work.

I hope you have a tripod and a good camera head ( like a fluid head ). That way you can set it up near your computer, point camera out window or at some lighted area, and do your tests with slow pan... quickly have access to SD card, computer, and move along with testing.

I recently worked on some 4k stuff a friend shot (with slow pans included ) with a sony camera ( S log, mov h264, 4.2.0 ), and it looked fine. I wanted to know how my edit computer would handle 4k ( it's old and only good for 1080p ). So I put the 4k into a 1080p timeline ( 23.976 FPS) and it was fine. Had to proxy it though.

He was getting stuff out of camera with SD card.

In the U.S. 23.976 fps is good with 180 deg shutter. In 50Hz electric land ( U.K., Australia, etc. ) the shutter would be 172.8 degrees at 23.976 or 24 FPS to avoid flickering lights.

I have a Nikon D800 that shoots to an SD card ( mov h264 ) which sucks. So I use an Atomos Ninja recorder ( HDMI out of camera to HDMI Into Atomos ). I use DNxHD in the Atomos, and the SSD is about 1 TB.  That puts my 4.2.0 color from chip (hdmi out is uncompressed ) into a higher bitrate file with 4.2.2.  Don't get more color, but once imported to editor the other stuff I add ( graphics, effects, transitions ) look nicer in 4.2.2. space.

So, bottom line... get the shooting down right first.... Then worry about the editing.

Legend
May 16, 2019

P.S. if you are in 50Hz land, just shoot 25 fps at any shutter angle, you should be fine.