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Question

AIR is now from HARMAN, what to expect?

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
May 30, 2019
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It is good or bad?

Development

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juvelez

Known Participant

Well, I don't think these are good news, start this negotiation in the middle of the most critical update imposed by Google. It seems that is just to force the payment model, similar to the Unity3D according to the Harman announcement that they are going to apply to all of the worried, desperate, hopeless developers that were surprised with this suddenly last minute announcement of the AIR acquisition. Andrew Frost @ajwfrost from Harman, do you really thing that AIR and Unity 3D can be compared?, do you really think Adobe AIR, that it is just an SDK, deserve a subscription payment model like Unity 3D?, Unity come fully loaded of tools of all kinds, plugins, assets, native access to almost the entire native platforms it supports, all of the mobile platforms, all of the desktop platforms, all of the game console platforms, all of the smart TV platforms, and web; it offers all of you need to build AAA Games and Apps without the need to pay for anything else, AIR and Unity are not comparable at all, so you can't be thinking in a payment model like Unity for AIR, to develop with AIR you need to invest in a lot of additional tools like ANEs, SDKs, IDEs, you depend of the most expensive extensions ever to access the simplest native functionality, even to integrate simplest technologies like Facebook login, you must pay a lot of money, and only for 2 platforms and 1 architecture, while Unity offers almost every existing platform on all architectures, if you want an almost complete production ecosystem you need to be subscribed to Adobe CC, these among another lot of reasons Adobe AIR can't be charged. We are not going to pay anything for AIR, it's going to be less expensive for a thousands of developers to port their AS3 games to Haxe, frameworks like Starling and Away3D are already ported, and start new ones with another technologies much more reasonable. We are already porting all of our games to Haxe, and starting new ones with another tools that deserve its costs, we are already completing our porting and we are really sure that we are going to publish updates before Harman releases any usable AIR. Adobe always kicked out our asses, always abandoned the developers that generously supported their technologies, even controversial ones like Flash, this is going to finish with this fatal AIR new era, the future of AIR is its death.

hferreira80

Inspiring

"start this negotiation in the middle of the most critical update imposed by Google"

That's why I read somewhere about blackmail and ransomware.

"so you can't be thinking in a payment model like Unity for AIR"

Yes, they can. A lot of developers seems (as you said "desperate"), so they will pay for sure.

For last but not least: "Well, I don't think these are good news"

I think that it's the best news that we can get about AIR and a lot of people requested this in the past.

There are 2 kind of Apps/Games.

Ones that the ROI justify porting to another tech and the ones that not.

For example: If you are about to do a big layout redesign, than it's a good time to port.

juvelez

Known Participant

"I think that it's the best news that we can get about AIR and a lot of people requested this in the past."

I don't think so, one thing is to ask for a robust development ecosystem, no matter if we have to pay for it, other thing is to charge for a SDK that today is limited by design, trying to build, in a pretty clumsy way, a market place where all of the extracted pieces are sold separately, AIR is just a Shell, is not a fully featured development framework.

The GOOD NEWS I will expect from Harman is that they announce a truly multiplatform SDK/Framework not only with partial support of iOS and Android like now, but with all of the available platforms and architectures including game consoles, Tizen, WebOS, Web, and with full native support of everything in every hardware, with 3D editing, 2D editing, rich GUI design, machine learning, Native AR, among ArKit and ArCore, etc., and let ANEs just for specially implementations, not for everything like now, if you need Facebook, need an ANE, if you Need Tweeter, another ANE, if you need AdMob, another ANE, if you Need AdColony, another ANE, if you need device ID, another ANE, etc., this become AIR a pretty expensive pipeline. How much time is going to take Harman to build a framework like this?... while Google is closing our apps right now because the lack of x64 support, Harman is thinking and planing how to make money with us, instead of offering a solution right now, then announce a slow transition to a pay model while they rebuild AIR from ground to something that allow us build AAA games and apps. But the first announcement they did contains words like: commercial, payment, now, from AIR 33...

About porting, it is pretty inexpensive to port AS3 games to Haxe/OpenFL/Lime/Straling/Away3D, and are really multiplatform and multiarchitecture.

Vivid75

Known Participant

I am one of those people that started off as a pure graphic designer but wanted to make my designs interactive, so Flash became my inspiration after seeing all the work being done by agencies such as 2advanced studios and Fantasy Interactive. There was no better IDE than Flash / Animate to allow the designer / developer hybrid to excel. I could truly focus on the visual UI and program functionality within the IDE using the timeline, or integrate external code using inlcludes (external actionscript files). Once mobile devices gained prominence, Adobe AIR combined with MyFlashLab’s and Distriqt’s ANEs allowed me to truly innovate. Since the Animate IDE and as3 language was so mature, it made things so much easier to debug and release without having to constantly worry about the next release of the language having breaking changes (ex. Polymer, Angular and React). The community supporting this tech is more passionate than any other I’ve seen. The biggest challenge is promoting it to the younger generations and bringing back the designer / developer hybrids. Nothing against the typical front-end devs, but I was always a firm believer that UI should always be the responsibility of the designers and not be coded from scratch.

As far as what I hope for from Harman, here’s my wishlist (My focus has been Automotive learning applications, but have been experimenting non stop)

1. A robust and secure httpClient library that can handle the latest SSL and TLS security requirements for REST web services (Neo 4j Graph QL would be nice as well)

2. Native Augmented Reality for iOS ( ARKit 3) and equivalent Android framework

3. VR Video/image integration

4. Advanced Geotracking / Geofencing features

5. Asynchronous image encoding / decoding

6. Better push notification integration

7. Better GPU performance

8. More advanced Webview integration with Air

9. Ability to embed / develop social features (feeds)

10. More integrations with Cloud backend services ( Firebase/AWS)

11. More support for video (ex. Alpha support)

12. Mobile tutorials for AIR (Animate, Flex, Intel IDEA, Haxe, Flash builder, etc)

I will end my post by saying that Flash / AIR has really allowed me to innovate and execute any idea that comes into my mind without much difficulty. I am able to protype and release solutions in very tight timelines without sacrificing quality or effectiveness.

I want to also express my desire to help educate and promote this tech any way I can. I have helped develop samples / tutorials in Adobe Animate for Distriqt in the past to get users up and running quickly.

In the end, we all want to build experiences that are memorable and easy to use. Adobe AIR allows us to do just that. Thanks for listening.

Anonymous

Air and Flash are fantastic technologies. It is only Adobe's lack of sense and support that caused them to lose value.

Here is how to "Make Air Great Again":

The #1 mistake Adobe made was creating Stage3D without first adding proper support for their visual editor. I do not know if any of you all remember, but creating (non-hardcore) apps with Flash Professional was QUICK. I can not stress enough how fast I could create and hook into a user interface using the Flash timeline vs. sprite-sheets and manual drawing today. Flash was the very definition of "Rapid Development"...with MovieClips being highly underrated (especially when used with "Embed"). Yes, it was not ideal, performance-wise, but if you did not need the performance, the productivity trade-off was undeniable. By pushing Stage3D in a half-baked state, Adobe was very much pushing everyone away from their visual editor; and in turn, away from Flash, Air, and profits. With everyone now creating user interfaces programatically, how did Air differ in regard to productivity from any other competing technology with Stage3D equivalents? Why pay for the visual editor if it was no longer needed? It was a huge regression, and mistake.

So, fix their mistake; focus on improving GPU mode support...work with Adobe on keeping integration with Animate...do not waste time on Stage3D. If people need that level of performance, they are using the wrong technology. Return the technology to its roots...rapid development...an all in one visual/development pipeline. MAKE IT GREAT AGAIN.

_falcan0

Inspiring

^ That's what I said, basically. The workflow of visual design to app is a huge value for non-hardcore / new users. What I proposed for starters was more like creating a simple integrated visual editor for Stage3D / Starling / maybe Feathers. That way you would both gain control over the whole ecosystem over time (taking over from Animate) + would gain interest from new developers quickly. You could advertise this Harman IDE + AIR as a new product (even rebranding it, if needed). That would also give additional justification for your pricing models.

You would be able to import bitmaps (texture) which would auto merge into atlases(shouldn't be hard, lots of 3rd party open source spritesheet tools around). You'd have simplified scene with Starling MovieClips and timeline implementation with the ability to animate just basic properties at first (scale / rotation / translate / alpha etc.). That might constitute a basis of an AS3 engine which would handle loading scenes and their resources & the timeline animations (so people don't simply have to write that boilerplate code). You could use this to build up basic app scenes and even UI rapidly / publish to mobile and desktop right away.

Lastly, you would be able to double click and attach scripts to MovieClips. You could do it like Unity, give users option to integrate with their favorite 3rd party AS3 editor.

Myself I've been implementing such workflow in the past (but for HTML5/JS), creating simple apps from Adobe Photoshop. So I know its doable reasonably quickly by 1 person, let alone by a small team.

The important part is having the complete workflow for AS3/Stage3D/AIR(no matter how basic) where you can already build simple apps - then you could market it from a central website hub, going mainstream from there. I think if you won't do that and simply dig around AIR runtime for a year trying to leak the holes, you will simply become more and more obsolote compared to Unity 2D and others (because now Animate and AIR basically became broken apart, which makes it even weirder). You need to solidify the ecosystem, get interest of lots of new non-hardcore developers and get them on the paying programs. At least, thats what I would do

------

As for bending Flash into using GPU, thats what Adobe has been trying to do...it kind of works already. I think, problem managing textures automatically is a tricky business. Uploading textures to GPU takes a long time. And its really hard to determine when to do that, and in what amount, without hampering the user experience (causing lags by texture upload in the middle of something).

You might need some new AS3 commands to help AIR managing texture memory. Not saying its impossisble, I'm only speaking with experience developing on chromium for mobile for a bit, which works similarly. It didn't feature GPU acceleration at first, then yes, but you needed to sue some css "tricks" for the accelerated layer. But of course texture management becomes a pain as soon as you start using it more extensively. You needed to arrange things in particular order or use various funny css switches to avoid lags caused by texture uploads at random times. I'd probably prefer to have that specialized Starling workflow with atlases rather than black box doing whatever with the textures.

Paul Darky

Inspiring

I just read this.

Does it mean that I will have to keep paying for Adobe Animate and aside that I will have to pay HARMAN for the AIR SDK?

Jonathon P

Participating Frequently

Is AIR within Animate CC going to stop working with all of this HARMAN transition? I have over 40 apps currently generating revenue. 5 of them a significant amount of revenue. I've never needed to go beyond Animate for developing these apps. I find it extremely easy to be working with the UI elements in realtime in Animate while coding.

Any insights would be helpful.

ajwfrost75

Participating Frequently

Animate should continue to work with the new AIR SDKs. There's an initial [trivial] issue with how Animate is version-checking the AIR SDK version which we need to resolve, and there needs to be a way for you to specify whether to package with the 32-bit or 64-bit runtime; I believe that the Animate team will provide this via a UI at some point, like how they do with ARM vs x86, but for the short term it will likely be a config file setting.

Flash Builder and Adobe Animate are handled completely separately, so we're nothing to do with those; obviously we're going to try to ensure that everyone's favourite IDEs are working with the new SDK.

BBartonW

Participating Frequently

RE: Adobe Air 33 SDK - update and pricing email and PDF 2019-06-20

From email

The model of a subscription is one that was strongly suggested on various web forums and from individuals we were in contact with prior to this.

The subscription model has a major flaw.(at least as implemented by Adobe). If you need to update an old client application that requires an old version of the product, you are out of luck if the license doesn't let you use the old version.

My case: Developed visitor center touch screen applications in 2009 with Flash CS4 Professional (pre-subscription prcing). Am currently working on minor updates. The way we did Arabic text doesn't work under CS5 or CS5.5. To avoid re-write we have to use CS4 which runs mostly okay under Windows 10 (I worked around issues with labels and multiple scenes) and I have to publish the projector on old Vista system from 2009--but it works. With subscription pricing we would not be allowed to use the old software--as was pointed out by a recent Adobe email warning against using older subscription version of Photoshop as their licenses (and hence my license) was no longer active. My customer would not be happy with complete re-write pricing--customer would probably jump ship.

This isn't really a complaint, because HARMAN picking up AIR and offering subscription pricing is much much better than no option at all, but for me, I refused to go with subscription pricing for Animate because of fears related to this (I went to AIR/FlashDevelop), and now I am in a situation where had I been required to use subscription pricing in 2009, I wouldn't be able make simple inexpensive updates for my client.

If HARMAN can somehow address that issue, that would be great. I really appreciate HARMAN's/Andrew's responsiveness and communications, but for me, and I realize that I am pretty much an oddball, I will have to look at the dwindling non-subscription options.

dmunsie

Participant

Fwiw: Harman - Adobe Partnership - HARMAN

denisr704218734737017

Inspiring

Well at least, something is happening in the world of AIR.

What I don't understand is: what becomes of Flash Builder? Will it also become a Harman product? And Animate?

In our mobile development team (and out there as well), AIR is clearly not trending.

But when a cross-platform project requires Windows / desktop, AIR is still the best option we have, it seems, since all other frameworks do not seem to offer mature & reliable solutions.

natural_criticB837

Legend

I have to say we are very happy that we will finally be able to pay for support. Hopefully this will be the foundation to grow Air and make a sustainable business case for HARMAN so that it makes sense for them update and extend it.

Phasor1

Participating Frequently

Precisely having Linux as output is "a very specific need" of a particularly specific type of developer and market environment ...

The simple fact of being a "multimedia developer" gives a very specific profile and development type and that has a competitive difference compared to, for example: web developer (millions), or developer of apps for devices (UI type apps). The market is full of that. There is a lot of competitiveness in those markets .. It does not matter if you compile "also for linux". It is a mini-market.

We have had interactive multimedia working in windows / AIR, 24h a day without problems. The issue of paying licenses for an OS as something "negative" ... Nor do we stop to think those things. Windows comes "standard" in most PCs. I do not think this is a big problem to "solve" right now. You can even compile an apk for Android (free), a simply install it directly on the devices of a given event without paying any license to anyone.

I agree that adapting AIR for Linux would be easier than developing a cross-compiler to export to the web. But I do not see somenthing easy, to get all the AIR windows functionalities in Linux (they could leave the basics but lose certain functionalities).

It is possible that there are "many" small nuances to be corrected, but in the rest of the platforms, no matter how modern, there are lots of shortcomings that the entire AIR ecosystem and tool set do not have ... There is a clear difference between having a totally fundamental functionality and the "it would be good to have the ability to ...". I think that over time some of these little problems will be corrected. But this will not be during this year (you can still live with most of them).

Personally, in return I prefer some of the features of the Flash / AIR ecosystem than some of the "modern" things that other platforms allow.

What you have to do is sit down and think: what feature is totally vital and does not have AIR ?. Something I can not even live with ...

(No, hot reload is not totally vital, to give an example)

hferreira80

Inspiring

AIR for Desktop is already pretty good, so I think that it's not a bad time to ask for support to Linux (OK, after the dramatic situation about Android 64 bits that Adobe toasted us).

For what I had read so far, if someone is able to bring AIR for Linux is Harman and seems that it's an area that they are confortable.

I would not imagine ask for Adobe to bring back AIR for Linux.

Better, I would ask nothing to Adobe.

Unfortunately, Adobe treated us, as second citizens in the past years and specially in the past months and some dudes get used to ask very little and get nothing in return.

Phasor1

Participating Frequently

With all my respect, I do not understand the people who want linux with some sort of "priority" destination in AIR ...

In the business world, very few people work with Linux. The very few who work with that OS, will most likely have a PC at hand.

On the other hand, "hardcore" Linux users (programmers and system people), in general, care very little about the products that can be developed with AIR (in many cases interactive multimedia) ...

You have to be realistic and propose realistic things (and what really are priorities). Agree that everyone has their priorities, but within a general vision, there are a series of common priorities for all.

The first is to keep AIR running and updated for windows, mac, Android and iOS. This obviously includes Android 64bis (which is what they are working on now).

Adding features to desktop is not a priority right now (it is very powerfull as it is). It will be necessary in the future, and Harman has announced that they will also take care of that part in the future.

The next priority is to create a website with information, tutorials, examples (and a forum). Make the community involved and participatory. And advertise it. This is totally fundamental, since easily accessible tutorials are what will bring people closer to AIR. Above ANY NEW feature. Because if you cannot find information easily and clearly online, nobody will know what can be done with it ...

Next is to move forward with everything (possible) that is a real lack ("fundamental") within the technology. Little by little (there will be nothing "revolutionary" in a year).

Another feature that some see as fundamental, is that AIR can compile to web destination ... Of course it would be very good, but this is not realistic at this moment in time. It is impossible that Harman (or anyone else) can implement this in a few months ... when they will also have other realistic priorities.

Personally for us, a web output does not seem so fundamental, for several things:

The type of products for which AIR is more optimal (interactive multimedia), no longer fits as much in the web as in the era of the Flash Player. Today, what I see most on the web, are "responsive" html5 pages with vertical scroll. For this there is absolutely nothing better than developing it in pure html5 + css + javascript. They are informative content with some small animations, but they are not interactive multimedia products. It has nothing to do with the type of products for which AIR has more potential ...

Yes, it is possible to talk about developing "webapps" (which I suppose is what some refer to). But to develop pure webapps of a certain level, from my point of view, it is better to do it within a pure html5 / javascript framework or a specific UI app framework that compiles for web (DOM, not canvas).

AIR is not as optimal for such "browser output projects", and probably never will be. Because, I insist, actually Flash / AIR started as a multimedia platform, and not as a specific platform for (web) UI apps.

For me the global problem is more for developers who work on a "complex product". In those cases, they have to make a determination whether or not they continue with AIR.

In our case, luckily, we work more in services with a series of small "products", which are easily portable to other technologies at any time. Of course, what we work with AIR (once again) is pure interactive multimedia, and for that there is absolutely nothing that comes close in any other technology. Anything (in that area) that we port to another technology, has fewer features (or is less "optimized").

An example: html5 canvas, as "output" is crap. We only see problems, slowness, defects ... And this cannot be "fixed" by any framework or environment, because we all depend on that "runtime" (which will not improve in the short term).

In short, what I have said other times. AIR is very good for a number of project types, but it is not optimal or perfect for "anything". If we want to develop for all this other type of destinations we must learn other environments and ecosystems. There's no more...

For our part, we will continue working on AIR for presentations, events, and interactive multimedia in general, because our situation allows it and because it is the best technology for all this. Consider other technologies as an option for these things, nowadays is a waste of time. We also work with them, but for "other types of products".

Finally, comment that what is happening now with AIR, will happen to you with any other type of development environment in the future. You will have to recycle, because the technology will be "abandoned" (or will have less relevance) at some point.

zwetan_uk

Inspiring

Phasor1 wrote
With all my respect, I do not understand the people who want linux with some sort of "priority" destination in AIR ...
In the business world, very few people work with Linux. The very few who work with that OS, will most likely have a PC at hand.
...

If you target user software, Linux, sure is not a priority considering the market share
but when it come to the business world it is a different story

when you do projects like business touch screen, interactive display, orientation, navigation, etc.
there Linux make a huge difference

it is simply cheaper, more reliable and easier to update an operating system image based on Linux
especially when that OS run a software supposed to run 24/7 in public space like mall, airport, hospital, building etc.

you can do it with Windows too, but the imaging part is a nightmare

so AIR on Linux for the desktop, not only allow to install an AIR app on a Linux OS for the imaging part
but also provide the luxury to provide small'ish update where you can only update the SWF

think scenario where you have to update all your app software over a closed business network

I know many business case where people would rather pay a AIR Linux licensing fee vs Windows Licensing cost

now in term of upgrading AIR for Linux, it is a small effort compared to produce a web AIR target
it is not crazy, and it seems HARMAN already developed this kind of Linux builds for their own

ASWC

Inspiring

I think for HARMAN at this point it's more about resource management and short term success. That's what their next moves are going to try to answer.

They said they want to make money and bring new user to the tech so they need to figure out what's the right type of "new features" that's gonna attract new developers and that their own resources can handle. It's probably more about overall strategy than about adding this or that to the tech.

hferreira80

Inspiring

@ASWC

Indeed, in the past, but without Web (dead of Flash) and constant issues related with Mobile, I'm not so sure and yes, Xamarin is focus on Mobile and it's match better on that.

@JoãoCésar

Flutter makes remind me LISP and the way they release seems that they did in a hurried way (no xml UI).

ASWC

Inspiring

I agree without the web target I'm not sure how AIR can be really attractive to new comers. Some here say the web target doesn't matter but I do disagree. It's harder to find AIR attractive as a cross platform without it imo.

hferreira80

Inspiring

Microsoft is doing that.

They call Blazor.

I didn't have investigated so much (it's a not final product iet), however seems that you will be able to use C# on the client side and compile to WebAssembly.

How cool is that ?

Flash was a plugin for the browser, opening a runtime (desktop power) on the browser.

WebAssembly seems that same that already embeded on the browser, so I believe that this may be the future of web programming.

Compile to Web Assembly would be a winner even without marketing.

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