How to make latency compensation work? OR - suggestions for a small interface that DOES work?

[Guest]

I'm using a Roland UA-3FX interface with Audition 5.5 on windows 7.

If I load in a drum loop on one track and then record some bass on another track (monitoring direct though my interface), the recorded bass is slightly but noticably delayed from the drums.

As I understand it, the ASIO driver and Audition, between them, should be working out any latency and compensating for it.Any settings I can fiddle with? Can't find anything.

I did try using the ASIO4All driver which does have adjustable latency compensation in its settings, but this either wasn't enough or didn't do anything at all (not sure which!)

If it's an issue with the driver for the UA-3FX, can anyone else recommend a good small interface which can record in time?it's a shame 'cos the UA-3FX actually sounds great.

Ivan

[Guest]

Our boat is near Anglesey, where there was a tornado, and high winds. You might have seen the reports on the news about the ship breaking up off the coast and the helicopter pilot being rather famous. It's about a 2 hour drive from here to the boat and trailer and to jack the 2.5 tons upright again, plus all the loading and unloading of jacks, acros etc etc. It was calm here yesterday, but there we had to rope the ladders on to stop them blowing away.

Not relevant, but it keeps audio latency in prespective. Do PM me when you are ready and if you want. There must be a reason why some people are having problems and others not. It would be good to be sure the usb link was not the culprit.

[Guest]

I'd worry too much having a car parked in the road, let alone a boat!  Yes, I heard that story a few days back but hadn't caught up on it. Seems that unfortunately most of the crew were lost. Didn't realise our own Duke was involved!

I'll get hold of those tools you mentioned at some point, and take it from there...

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Wild_Duck wrote:

Some of this suggests to me that it might be a usb problem rather than a driver problem. I'm a great believer in xperf and logman as ways of seeing usb problems, if not actually resolving anything.

Ah, yes - there's one thing I didn't mention about the tests I did with the 8Pre - no USB involved at all. The 8Pre is a FireWire device. That of course brings its own problems, but as long as you use a Texas chipset device for it, it behaves fine. Whether that would remain true under W7 is another matter, of course...

Looks like WildDuck might be going to have to add snow into his boat problem equation now! Being in London, we're sort-of immune to this for the moment.

[Paul_Ferguson]

SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

Wild_Duck wrote:

Some of this suggests to me that it might be a usb problem rather than a driver problem. I'm a great believer in xperf and logman as ways of seeing usb problems, if not actually resolving anything.

Ah, yes - there's one thing I didn't mention about the tests I did with the 8Pre - no USB involved at all. The 8Pre is a FireWire device. That of course brings its own problems, but as long as you use a Texas chipset device for it, it behaves fine. Whether that would remain true under W7 is another matter, of course...

It works here.  (Not the 8Pre.  The other stuff about firewire texas chipset win 7.)

[Paul_Ferguson]

SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

therealdobro wrote:

Well, the fact that you're not going near W7 would explain, then, why you're running every version of SCEPAA (Syntrillium Cool Edit Pro Adobe Audition) - XP can run all of them, right?

Nearly right. I don't have all of them on one machine,  but XP will run more of them properly than any other OS, yes.

And it's not that I haven't gone near W7 - far from it. Only the other day I got a BSD from it, just from altering some of their ridiculous file permissions... any so-called 'OS' that does that doesn't deserve houseroom.

In that case, by lagging a step behind me, you're now a step ahead of me.  See, I can't run CEP 1.2 on Win 7.  Some plugins ditto.

(Sorry for the detour, Topomorto)

[Guest]

In that case, by lagging a step behind me, you're now a step ahead of me.  See, I can't run CEP 1.2 on Win 7.  Some plugins ditto.

          Do you have one of the versions of 7 (Professional / Ultimate / Enterprise) that has an XP mode? Any joy running it that way?

[Guest]

I am not sure what doesn't work for therealdobro, but I cn run CEP 1.0 nd CE2000 here reasonbly well on this Windows 7 64-bit laptop. I haven't done ny heavy work with them, but certainly they record and play back and allow simple editing. I haven't tried CEP 1.2 simply because I can't find the installation files or disks.

I do always run Win 7 in basic video mode because I hate all those fuzzy shadow effects and the video switching on older programs

The XP Mode in Win7 is not very satisfactory for audio because of the basic Soundblaster emulation it provides. You can get around this with usb devices by "Tunnelling" the usb functions through from the host Win7, but.it seems better to run these old progrm natively.

On the subject of firewire, my main desktop machine runs XP , has a basic M-Audio 2496 pci card hooked up to a Soundcraft mixer plus a Tascam FW-1884 firewire control surface/interface. This copes with everything I normally do here. I hve run the Tascam on various laptops with various firewire pcmcia cards and various on-board firewire. I have to say that, once you switch off all the power related timers in the machines, most fw chipsets seem to work OK. I did have one with a Ricoh chipset that I couldn't mke work, but I also have a Chinese sourced PC Expresscard with a TI chipset that wouldn't work in a Vista laptop. I have only recently got a laptop with Win 7 and an Expresscard slot, so I haven't had time to try it on Win7 yet.

[Guest]

I have to say that, once you switch off all the power related timers in the machines, most fw chipsets seem to work OK.

          As I'm unlikely to be bugging you for help with xperf, any chance of a link to a list/steps?

          I tried the OHCI tool to test firewire compatability on my machine, and it said it had no info about my chipset (rather than saying it would explode, or anything like that), so I snagged a cheapie presonus off ebay. It can always be sold on again,    but before  I try contacting Adobe about my latency issue I thought it would be good to try something else...

[Guest]

I'm a bit rusty on this but for firewire on laptops the first rule was to set all power management to "Always On". After that, if there was anything in the machine that involved timers, set that to Off. I never understood why timers and firewire didn't work together, but it seemed always to be a problem and seemed particularly to affect laptops.

As I said, I haven't tried firewire with Windows 7, but I understand that you may have to try something like "legacy firewire", whatever that is, to make it work.

It will be interesting to hear how it goes.

[emmrecs]

Wild_Duck wrote:

  As I said, I haven't tried firewire with Windows 7, but I understand that you may have to try something like "legacy firewire", whatever that is, to make it work.

It will be interesting to hear how it goes.

For info of Wild_Duck, and anyone else coming across this thread:

When Win 7 was introduced it appears that MS decided, in its wisdom, to include two Firewire drivers, the original "legacy" and a newer version.  W7 automatically defaults to the newer one but this has proved problematic for a number of uses, including cameras and audio interfaces.  Basically, the driver just doesn't work with these peripherals.

It is then necessary to force Win 7 to install the "Legacy Driver" (via Device Manager).

HTH.

[Guest]

Thanks emmrecs. That has spurred me on to try my Tascam FW-1884 with the low-end Win 7 Thinkpad laptop with my no-name Expresscard firewire interface. This interface reports that it uses a Texas Instruments chipset. This Tascam works fine in everyday use on the XP desktop and also works well and reliably on an ancient XP laptop (Medion single core P4 with built in TI firewire). I also have a Vista laptop with firewire and the older XP Lenovo that I'm typing on, which has the dreaded Ricoh chipset. Both these work fine with the FW-1884 (I've just tested them all again with a simple playback and control test).

First results on Windows 7 were not very encouraging. I hate ExpressCards, but this is a 34mm one in a 34 slot so I was hoping it would be better than where I had to clip on bits of plastic to make it fit a 54mm slot. But the Expresscard location in the machine is hair-trigger compared with the full size firewire plug and its heavy cable. 3 BSOD's later, I got it mechanically stable and the machine running OK.

Testing with Audition 1.5 (yes, I know wrong group), with the default Win7 1394 TI driver gave audio with gaps and no control surface action at all. I then installed the legacy driver. This gave some initial flying fader response when setting up, but no control surface actions when audio was playing. The audio played for about 50 seconds, but then fell silent with the counter still counting time. No point in trying recording at this stage.

So, there we are. I don't have much time to pursue this at the moment. It's a shame that none of my XP machines have an Expresscard slot, so I can't check the adapter on that OS.

[Paul_Ferguson]

When you say: "So, there we are," what conclusion are you drawing, exactly?  Your approach seemed flat out weird to me.  So I'd like to hear your conclusion. 

Also, are you actually recording anything these days, or just using 'a simple playback and control test'?

Simplify, in other words. 🙂

[Guest]

Simplify, in other words. 🙂

From what I understood, "nothing worked properly. It was very sad."

I will do some firewiring as soon as I have the right 4-to-6 pin cable.

[Guest]

I was posting in the context of the OP trying a move, using a laptop, to firewire from usb partly to test if his recording latency problem was solved by this.Also for curiosity about legacy firewire drivers in Windows 7.

In my experience, firewire on a laptop can be more problematic than on a desktop, but I have been able to use firewire devices on a variety of laptops running XP..

As a retired broadcast engineer, I often get calls from old friends and contacts who have office and audio problems, so I have kept a bunch of older laptops as test beds, and recently have been moving to Win 7 as the "users" replace their machines. I haven't been trying firewire with Win 7 simply because I haven't had a Win 7 machine with internal firewire or any sort of pcmcia or expresscard slot.

In the last few weeks, I have swapped machines and bought the Thinkpad with expresscard slot, so now I am able to plug in a firewire adapter. This seemed like a good time to have a quick try.

So there we are. I now have firewire on a Win 7 laptop. It doesn't operate the control surfaces correctly on my FW-1884, and it doesn't playback reliably. So there is no point in trying to record yet.  I do still record "things", but rarely go out to record sessions nowadays. I do know that others run FW-1884's under Win7, but don't know of anyone else using a laptop for this.

I doubt if this makes things much clearer.

[SteveG_AudioMasters_]

Wild_Duck wrote:

In my experience, firewire on a laptop can be more problematic than on a desktop, but I have been able to use firewire devices on a variety of laptops running XP..

Works fine here too. Over the last year or so, the MOTU Firewire interface has behaved perfectly on the laptop with XP - no problems or dropouts at all. Even (very bravely for me!) recorded a live gig in Leicester Square theatre with it. That's with a Belkin PCMCIA adaptor (Texas) and a very average performance HP laptop...

Trouble is that if I want to update the laptop, I have to find one that firstly will run XP, and secondly accepts a Firewire card in one of those new narrow slots that I can't remember the name of. Or wait until MS finally sort out the mess - which is the current preferred option!

[TheJackAttack-95Tmje]

In the FWIW category, I am running two laptops with Win7 Pro 64 bit and a FF800.  It works without error even when I throw the MCU Pro into the mix.  All audio drives are daisy chained into the firewire and the 1394b chipset is a Siig Express Card (54 size).  The only time I've had a BSOD is when the Express Card has gotten jostled in the machine reaching for something or once when an audience member got past me.

[TheJackAttack-95Tmje]

I am running the legacy driver on the laptops though RME reports there newest drivers for the Firewire series will work with the default.

[Guest]

TheJackAttack wrote:

In the FWIW category, I am running two laptops with Win7 Pro 64 bit and a FF800.  It works without error even when I throw the MCU Pro into the mix.  All audio drives are daisy chained into the firewire and the 1394b chipset is a Siig Express Card (54 size).  The only time I've had a BSOD is when the Express Card has gotten jostled in the machine reaching for something or once when an audience member got past me.

Is that with CS5.5?

EDIT: I can see from your post in another thread that you do have 5.5....

What kind of results do you get if you do the 'round tripping' experiment we've been doing in this thread?

[TheJackAttack-95Tmje]

@Topomorto: I'll try to run your guys' experiment this weekend.  I don't get much chance to poke in this forum.  I'm usually on the run too much but will endeavor to do so on this task.

And just to confirm, I run Win7 x64 Pro and Ultimate with a pair of daisy chained FF800's and Glyph externals.  I have CS5.5, AA3.01, AA2, CEP, though at this present time only the first two are currently installed.

Jack

[Guest]

TheJackAttack wrote:

@Topomorto: I'll try to run your guys' experiment this weekend.  I don't get much chance to poke in this forum.  I'm usually on the run too much but will endeavor to do so on this task.

Thank you sir, interested to see what happens!

[TheJackAttack-95Tmje]

Well. Curioser and Curioser. 

I ran the test indicated. I created a 4.02 second file (2 sec silence, .02 square wave, 2 sec silence).  I imported the file into CS5.5 and checked my buffers.  Looped the output of FF800 to the input.  Ran the routing within CCS5.5.

I ran tests at buffer values of 96, 128, 256, 512, 1024. Multiple times.  In each case other than 96 buffer samples the burst was offset by the buffer value.  So I whipped out Reaper and performed the same tests.  Reaper compensated without any issues.  Then says I, what does 3.01 do.  Au3.01 also compensated without issue. 

There must be a setting within CS5.5 that I am not aware of or missed.  Or I set up the loop punch in CS5.5 incorrectly.  As it's 0 dark 30 currently I'll play with this some more later.  This isn't a Win7 issue or 3.01 would misbehave as well, not to mention Reaper.

Jack

[Guest]

TheJackAttack wrote:

Well. Curioser and Curioser. 

I ran the test indicated. I created a 4.02 second file (2 sec silence, .02 square wave, 2 sec silence).  I imported the file into CS5.5 and checked my buffers.  Looped the output of FF800 to the input.  Ran the routing within CCS5.5.

Thanks. I'm slightly confused by what you mean by Ran the routing within CCS5.5 ? (my ignorance, I'm sure, not your wording!)

I ran tests at buffer values of 96, 128, 256, 512, 1024. Multiple times.  In each case other than 96 buffer samples the burst was offset by the buffer value.

What happened at 96?

This isn't a Win7 issue or 3.01 would misbehave as well, not to mention Reaper.

Yes, It's obviously not a "there's no way for recording programs to compensate properly on win 7" issue. It could be that CS5.5 does the wrong thing in win 7 sometimes though!

[TheJackAttack-95Tmje]

Track routing.  Output of test track going to FF800 analog output and then new track grabbing audio from FF800 input.  Hardware was patched with a six inch Mogami TRS cable.

The machine I used was a circa 2002 Dell D820 (T7500 4GB DDR SSD main/HDD 2nd internal, and Glyph externals) laptop with Siig 1394b adapter.  I had the wireless on and was updating a few other things too and 96 sample buffer was giving it indigestion.  It just wouldn't limbo that low. 

In all other cases from 128 buffer samples up, the results were offset by exactly the buffer size in CS5.5 only.  Au3.01 behaved as it should and after I posted I ran a couple more tests in 3.01 and duplicated earlier success.  Neither Reaper nor Samplitude had issues either.  I've refused to re-install PT for a couple of years so couldn't test that DAW.  In live classical work I don't ever overdub anything so  I guess I've never noticed CS5.5 glitch. 

Now however I'll be playing around in the preferences and menus looking for any clue though since this is built in compensation I doubt I'll find anything.  I'm not a code writer either but it could have been as easier as a missed keystroke in the compiling of the code too.

[Guest]

  I had the wireless on and was updating a few other things too and 96 sample buffer was giving it indigestion.  It just wouldn't limbo that low. 

Gotcha.

Now however I'll be playing around in the preferences and menus looking for any clue though since this is built in compensation I doubt I'll find anything.  I'm not a code writer either but it could have been as easier as a missed keystroke in the compiling of the code too.

I do now have a support case open for this (if you are the Adobe engineer currently reviewing this thread - hello! ) So I shall ask if there are any options hidden anywhere!

[Guest]

Jack, I think a Dell D820 would be 2006 or later and would have come with XP, so are you certain that all the needed Win7 64-bit drivers are in place?

There are a lot of variables here, but it looks as though there is some problem with asio latency with the combination of AA CS 5.5 and Windows 7 and that this problem doesn't seem to be evident with AA 3.01 or with CS5.5 under XP.

For my part, I still could install the trial version on another machine, but I'm still reluctant to do this.  Until this thread appeared, I didn't know anything about asio latency compensation or even that it existed - I just recorded into AA3 without having any latency problem.

What would be really useful would be to see some comment from Charles or Durin of Adobe - a statement of how it is supposed to work or just a request for someone to flag this officially as a bug.

PS Edit Just seen Topomorto's almost simultaneous post about Adobe reviewing this. Good!