• Global community
    • Language:
      • Deutsch
      • English
      • Español
      • Français
      • Português
  • 日本語コミュニティ
    Dedicated community for Japanese speakers
  • 한국 커뮤니티
    Dedicated community for Korean speakers
Exit
18

P: Add Rec 709 to LUT color spaces in new enhanced profiles

LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The new enhanced profiles can include LUTs, but the most common color space for existing LUTs, Rec 709, is omitted: 



There are thousands of Rec 709 LUTs available for video color grading, and allowing Rec 709 LUTs in enhanced profiles would let people achieve the same look for their video and still images.

Note that it would be necessary to include two versions of Rec 709 for gamma 2.2 and 2.4, since those are both widely used.

Idea No status
TOPICS
macOS , Windows

Views

5.1K

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Dec 16, 2021 Dec 16, 2021

Updating Status

 

Status No status

Votes

Translate

Translate
27 Comments
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Where are you accessing that screen capture? 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

In the New Profile dialog of ACR 10.3, which you get to by holding down Opt / Alt and clicking the New Preset button in the Presets tab.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

But what are you loading there? It's grayed out until you load something right? 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I loaded a LUT in .cube format.  Once it was loaded, then the Space dropdown menu was active.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I get that, but why then select one of the RGB working space options above? 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

"Space" specifies the color space of the LUT. The .cube LUT format doesn't specify the LUT's space, so you've got to tell ACR what it is.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Ah, good to known, thanks. So what happens if the color space isn't in sync? That is, you pick sRGB or ProPhoto but you want Rec 709? Like with ICC profiles, does that screw up the color appearance? And if you use such a LUT, does one have to use them only on images that are in the same color space (seems that wouldn’t be necessary with raws that have to be encoded into something at some point). 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

"So what happens if the color space isn't in sync? That is, you pick sRGB or ProPhoto but you want Rec 709? Like with ICC profiles, does that screw up the color appearance?"

Yup.  

sRGB is pretty close to Rec 709, with the same primaries but modestly differently gamma encoding.  A Rec 709 LUT applied to an sRGB image will often / usually result in an image acceptably close to that LUT applied to the Rec 709 version of the image, though I can often see differences in the shadows, as you'd expect.

"if you use such a LUT, does one have to use them only on images that are in the same color space (seems that wouldn’t be necessary with raws that have to be encoded into something at some point)."

No, the enhanced profile containing the LUT can be applied to any image that ACR / LR can read.  Looking at the profile's .xmp file, the color space isn't recorded anywhere, just an encoded LUT.  I'm guessing that encoded LUT represents the specified LUT, converted to the working space of ACR (MelissaRGB).

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

As an indication of the need for Rec 709, this LR feature request for the ability to use LUTs in LR has 97 votes:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/id_love_to_get_the_ability_to_use_3d_luts_in_...

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Very interesting, thanks!
Obviously I need to dig into LUT's and creation a lot more know that we have such features in ACR/LR. I'm toying with buying 3D LUT Creator; are you familiar with it and if so, is the entry level ($99) version sufficient? 
TIA.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I don't have any experience with 3D LUT Creator.  I've used Lattice a little for technical transforms of LUTs. 

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 05, 2018 Apr 05, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks, interesting video's on Lattice. I have to see if the $99 version of 3D LUT creator is going to cut it for starting out or, their Standard version which is on par price wise with Lattice:
https://3dlutcreator.com
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
New Here ,
Apr 06, 2018 Apr 06, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I agree. I commented on Julieanne Kost's blog post about it as well. http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/2018/04/lightroom-cc.html

Copy/Pasting my comment from the post:

Question about the LUTs in the SDK. In regards to Space and Clip/Extend. What specifically is this referring to? The RGB data being input, output?

For instance if I have a LUT that converts Rec709 Gamut/sRGB Gamma -> Rec709/Cineon > Kodak 2383/Rec709 Emulation would I select space: srgb/clip?

Basically do I need to make my LUT loop back into whatever colorspace I define in ACR? For instance ProphotoRGB/Gamma 1.8 -> Rec709/Cineon -> Kodak2383/Rec709 Emulation -> ProphotoRGB/Gamma 1.8.

How does ACR/LR interpret the RGB data after it’s run through the LUT?

I assume it has to process the data from LR Internal working space > some RGB > LUT > Interpret RGB DATA > Convert for display icc.

I feel like it’d be useful to add a couple parameters that define how to encode the RGB data going into the LUT and another for how to interpret the output data from the LUT. A few standard ones can be:

LUT Input Space (This is the data fed into the LUT/Exported out of ACR):

Rec709/Cineon Log
Rec709/sRGB
Rec709/Gamma 2.4
Rec709/Rec709 Gamma
P3D65/Gamma 2.6
P3D60/Gamma 2.6
P3D65/sRGB (DisplayP3)
ACESCG/Gamma 1.0
ProphotoRGB/Gamma 1.0
ProphotoRGB/Gamma 1.8
ProphotoRGB/sRGB

LUT Output Space(This is the data fed out of the LUT/Interpreted by ACR):

AdobeRGB/Gamma 2.2
Rec709/sRGB
Rec709/Gamma 2.4
Rec709/Gamma 2.2
Rec2020/Gamma 2.4
P3D65/Gamma 2.6
P3DCI/Gamma 2.6
P3D60/Gamma 2.6
P3D65/sRGB (DisplayP3)
ProphotoRGB/Gamma 1.8
ProphotoRGB/sRGB

Thanks so much!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
New Here ,
Apr 06, 2018 Apr 06, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Andrew, if you're comfortable with command look into this. From the creator of Lattice.

https://github.com/gregcotten/pylut

https://www.jasonmyres.com/converting-3d-luts-for-resolve-lustre-and-nuke-using-pylut-in-osx

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
New Here ,
Apr 06, 2018 Apr 06, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Also Lattice isn't a WYSIWYG freeform LUT editor like 3DLUTCreator. By that I mean it's not such that one can select a range of colors and modify them. It's more a GUI for LUT math. Similar to LUTcalc https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html but in my opinion far more intuitive and provides a bit more options. 

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks ; more and more, 3DLUT creator seems like the best option for me.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The color space specified by Space refers to the color space on which the LUT is defined to operate.  So if you select Rec 2020, then the LUT will be assumed to take as input color numbers in Rec 2020 and produce as output color numbers in Rec 2020.

I believe that internally, ACR transforms that LUT to operate on color numbers in the internal working space of ACR (Melissa RGB, a variant of ProPhoto RGB). But I haven't verified that yet.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
New Here ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I figured it out. Some LUTs are used as color space transforms, so it's likely best to use Prophoto RGB as the operating space to prevent clipping.

Round trip example with ProphotoRGB selected using Lattice to create LUT:

Prophoto RGB  > REC709/Cineon > Kodak 2383 DCIP3 >  Prophoto RGB. 

Also with Lattice make sure "Preserve Embedded Color Space Profiles" is checked in the preferences. 

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Minor point: Melissa RGB which is a variant of ProPhoto RGB has a 2.2 TRC but isn't the internal color space for processing which has no name and has a 1.0 TRC. Melissa RGB is only used for the RGB values and Histogram (when no soft proof profile is selected as in LR). 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
New Here ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Andrew,

Do you know if it's 2.2 or sRGB? The TRCs are very slightly different, linear section near bottom part.

The reason I ask is in the enhanced profile documentation it states there are two encodings for profile look tables, 0=Linear and 1=sRGB

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

"Melissa RGB which is a variant of ProPhoto RGB has a 2.2 TRC but isn't the internal color space for processing which has no name and has a 1.0 TRC."

Right, thanks for the correction.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Just the same sRGB TRC of 2.2, not a simple gamma curve.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Apr 07, 2018 Apr 07, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Better yet: Think of it as sRGB with ProPhoto RGB primaries.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Jun 24, 2018 Jun 24, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Any chance of getting this in the next version of Camera Raw? This would make it possible to use the thousands of LUTs available in Rec 709, and make it much easier for people producing videos and stills to use LUTs to achieve consistent looks.

 Isn't it a trivial change to add two more ICC profiles?  

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
LEGEND ,
Aug 27, 2018 Aug 27, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Any news guys?

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report