P: Auto-write changes to XMP

[Lumigraphics]

In Camera Raw, there is a half-buried setting to write changes to XMP. Unfortunately there is no way to specify that settings should always be written to XMP, so every file I process, I have to manually run that command.

How about adding a preference to always write changes? I move files between machines as my workflow, I use presets and dng profiles, and everything blows up if changes aren't saved out.

[dfranzen_camera_raw]

@lumigraphics We could consider a preference (your original request) to modify the behavior of the Done button. We think auto-writing default settings to files that haven't been edited at all when clicking Done would cause more problem than it might solve, so we would have to weigh the pros and cons of adding this as a preference very carefully. 

About the preset aspect of your workflow: using a preset for your defaults isn't relevant to how Camera Raw works in this scenario. Whatever the defaults--camera settings, Adobe's factory defaults, or a custom preset--until you edit a photo with an intentional action the photo has no settings, so when you click Done, so no settings are written out to file. We think camera defaults are useful to photographers who want to customize the starting point of their edits, and not the final edits.

[TheDigitalDog]

I've got no dog in this fight (for a change ;-0 ) so I can see both perspectives. 

If you open a document in Photoshop and do nothing but view it, then close it, there is nothing to save and the request to save is never presented to the user; makes total sense. In a way, this is true here for ACR. The raw data must be rendered to be seen with some initial settings. Should just opening a raw and rendering to view alone be cause to force a save? 

Then there is Lightroom. You import a raw with some default settings just to see it (and build a preview to see it); is any XMP saved to the Catalog or DNG when this is done alone? If not, then I think the behavior seen in all three products which match, make sense. 

[Lumigraphics]

@david_franzen 

That makes no sense, why would use of a preset assume that manual adjustments MUST be made? Presets are edits, are they not?

When a user opens multiple photos with defaults and adjusts some of them, all will show settings. Only writing some of them is confusing and an inconsistent UI. That's almost certainly a violation of the HIG for both platforms. A command should act consistently.

If I click "Done" then all opened files should be treated the same way. Not writing settings out for some files is deliberate data loss. I think if you have it only one way or the other, you should ALWAYS write settings to XMP, regardless of whether they are applied with a preset or manually.

[TheDigitalDog]

As I mentioned above, a preset isn't necessarily and edit as much as a means of creating a preview of data that must be rendered to even view. There can't be 'no' settings applied to show you raw data; it must be rendered somehow if you want to view it. Clicking 'Done' without anything further isn't any different (at least one could argue) than opening a TIFF with an embedded ICC profile used to create a preview, then closing it without any edits. You don't get a dialog to save it, there isn't anything to save. 

I can see the need, as you suggest, to allow that initial set of parameters to be described/saved. But I can also see why Adobe is doing what they are currently doing. 

[Lumigraphics]

@andrew_rodney

When I open a file with an assigned preset, individual adjustment sliders are not in the out-of-the-box positions. That's why I use presets in the first place, to edit my RAW files.

I'm just asking for a way to save those adjustments when I click Done without having to dive into a menu to do so.

[TheDigitalDog]

I understand the settings are not out of the box and the presets are yours to initially see that preview. And I understand why you would want to have that now be written as such. I'm not against that change. But I also see and accept why it is “as designed”. I'm also still wondering about Lightroom. Are these three imaging apps on parity with each other? 

[Lumigraphics]

@andrew_rodney

I think its backwards and poorly designed, frankly. This seems like another case of the developers not eating their own dog food. I batch process thousands of images and have to do this stupid little dance with every one of them. And since ACR isn't scriptable I can't even write something to automate it. :sigh:

And yes it would be interesting to see what Lightroom does but as a practical matter, it doesn't help me a bit. I'm committed to the Bridge/ACR workflow.

[TheDigitalDog]

I'm not  asking you to change workflow. I'm asking about consistent behavior over the three products or at the very least, two that “open” a raw. That could make it a practical matter in your request.

[Guest]

This makes a lot of sense to me.  Some years ago when I was doing work on electronic medical records there were some options that caused a save when the user's intent was merely to view an object.  This was a non-trivial problem.  I think there are many people who would prefer the way ACR works now when clicking Done.

[Lumigraphics]

@andrew_rodney

I'm not interested doing a bunch of testing with products I don't use, I'm pointing out a solution that I would like for my particular issue. The "workaround" is useless, that's exactly what I have BEEN doing and would like changed because its a pain in the rear.

Lightroom Classic autosaves, it doesn't have a Done button, so I'm not even sure how that is relevant.

[dfranzen_camera_raw]

When I open a file with an assigned preset, individual adjustment sliders are not in the out-of-the-box positions

The Raw defaults feature lets you decide what the “out-of-the-box” settings are. This gives you more control, at the expense of some complexity. Before Camera Raw introduced this feature (using a preset as a default), I think your workflow would have required more steps: visiting the Presets panel and selecting the preset you wish to apply.

My understanding of the scenario was that you had not actually assigned a preset to the photos, but what you had done was modify the Raw default settings to use a preset. It’s not the same thing. If I misunderstood the workflow that leads you to the situation where settings aren’t saved to files, I’m sorry, but I’ll need to you walk me through the steps one by one.

When a user opens multiple photos with defaults and adjusts some of them, all will show settings. Only writing some of them is confusing and an inconsistent UI.

The photos are handled differently because they are in a different state. Camera Raw’s UI has several elements to help photographers understand what photos have been edited, and what settings in those photos have been edited.

In the screenshots below I’ve circled in red four items. In one screenshot the current photo has custom settings. In the other the current photo has no settings, so the defaults are used for rendering.

• In the filmstrip, when it’s configured to show filenames or ratings and labels, a small icon that represents two slider controls appears by the thumbnail.
• In the bottom toolbar the button that toggles between the current/custom settings and defaults appears disabled when the photo has default settings.
• In the toolbar on the right side. A dot is added next to the tool icon (Edit in this case) if the tool’s settings are set to non-default values.
• In the edit stack, the “eyeball” icon button is enabled if the any settings in the panel are set to non-default values and disabled if all the settings match the defaults.

Custom Settings:

No Settings, showing Defaults:

I’m pointing these things out to help everyone reading this thread understand better how defaults work in Camera Raw and the difference between photos with settings and no settings. I do realize you are seeking to automate and speedup your workflow.

And since ACR isn't scriptable I can't even write something to automate it. :sigh:

Yes, Camera Raw supports batch operations to do the same operation to many files, but it still requires a manual operation. Bridge is very scriptable, and if it does not currently support automating setting the Camera Raw settings to a preset, that sounds like a good feature request for Bridge.

There are reasons why not saving the default settings to file for unedited photos is desirable. One is that if you change or refine your Raw defaults, any unedited photos opened in the future will start with your new defaults. Another is that some photographers like to be able to keep track of what photos have been intentionally edited and which have not, and if simply opening a batch of photos and editing a subset saved settings to all photos in the batch, that workflow would be much more difficult.

[TheDigitalDog]

I'm not interested doing a bunch of testing with products I don't use, I'm pointing out a solution that I would like for my particular issue.

Fine. Just don't be surprised that not having that consideration of the behavior over multiple Adobe apps weaken the request. I am frankly fine with either behavior. But I have some experience in making a case to Adobe in at least considering such requests and a bit of work is involved. If you want to make the request and move on, ok with me.

[Lumigraphics]

@david_franzen 

This is why my feature request is a preference to autosave preset adjustments.

My workflow is simple. I typically process anywhere from a few to several dozen CR2 files from two different cameras at once. I have a default preset for each camera with various adjustments.

Once I open the files in ACR, I look at each one quickly to see if additional editing is needed. For one camera, I often crop to 1:1 and rotate 180 degrees. For the other camera I usually don't have to make any further changes because the preset has them ready to bring into Photoshop.

Once I have looked at everything, I click Done. At that point I can open small batches into Photoshop for retouching. My expectation is that clicking Done exports the current adjustment of each raw file to XMP, regardless of whether its a preset change or manual.

The current implementation means I have to select all and explicitly write changes to XMP. It makes no sense to me why you would do things this way but a simple preference would make it easier.

With your logic, ONLY manual adjustments should be written and nothing from the preset should. I don't get why this is such a big deal, and I'm a working professional who is trying to advise you about a tested workflow. I've handled thousands of files this way and a preference to automatically write ALL adjustments, regardless of source, to XMP would help me immensely.

And Rodney, I'm not going to argue with you over testing this in Lightroom. I have no need for this feature in Lightroom and Adobe should already know how it works there.

[TheDigitalDog]

We are not arguing sir! I'm trying to help you make your case to Adobe. But whatever. We can now both sit back and count the “days” until your request gets implementation 😉

[defaultmodenetwerk]

Please add an auto-save feature for Camera Raw edits. Several times the software has crashed while using the new "Select Sky" feature. Hours of edits lost because I hadn't exported photos yet, or clicked "Done" to create the .XMP's. I would love for the .XMP's to be created on the fly. Perhaps after moving on to the next photo - they could save and write the edit data. Between the crashes and accidentally hitting escape, there's many opportunities for disaster. 

[TheDigitalDog]

See:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/camera-raw-ideas/camera-raw-auto-write-changes-to-xmp/idi-p/12343375

You can vote there if this isn't merged.