(Color Management) Colors change in every program?

[Bildgigant]

Dear Forum,

My Hardware:

Computer: Windows 10 (with newest updates), i7-6700K, AMD Radeon R9 390

monitor: Eizo CS270

calibration device: datacolor Spyder5Pro

calibration software: Color Navigator 6 (newest Version from eizo)

My Problem
For example I edit a photo in Adobe Lightroom classic CC (newest Version) and make the colors look perfect for my taste and afterwards I export the image for uploading it to a website (I export with sRGB profile). After when i open the picture for example in Windows 10 App "photos" the before orange looking picture gets extremely red.. if i upload it to instagram on my phone the picture looks also more saturated and red than before in lightroom (where it was more unsaturated and more orange) .. if i upload it to my website the picture seems to look like in lightroom in google Chrome browser.. in EDGE or Internet Explorer or Firefox (all the newest versions) it looks like grap ... extrem saturated and red ... now I'm totally confused and not sure how the picture really looks like.. Isn't it possible to have the same colors at least on my computer in each program? 

Some example pictures (its the same problem with every picture and also with some more applications.. for example also on my phone specially in instagram where i want to share my pictures the picture looks damn saturated and red again...):

What could I do to get similar colors in every program that i know what I'm editing or what the viewer of my website will see at the end?!

[Test Screen Name]

Colour management works: you can expect the same colours IN EVERY COLOUR MANAGED APP, with careful use of settings. So Photoshop and Lightroom are colour managed. The others apps are not: the result will be random.

You have purchased a wide gamut monitor. You need to know that these are a specialist tool, made for particular narrow purposes, and you must use ONLY colour managed software (or accept wild colour variation). Don't use any of those apps you mention that are bad. If you need to use these apps get another monitor.

We all thought 15 years ago that all apps would be colour managed by now so it would just work. Unfortunately we are going backwards, not forward. The Windows 10 Photos app is NOT colour managed, even though the Windows 8 Photos app WAS.

[Bildgigant]

Thank you very much for your answer! This was helpful aswell for me because now I have the safety to know that lightroom and Photoshop show the right colors

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi

a really good way to properly check display appearance is using something like this

Http://www.colourmanagement.net/prover.html

Once you have a certified proof to hand you can rely on it for correct appearance and  possibly adjust brightness and white target for calibration.

I seldom find a user who is 100% happy with the “standard” presets if display calibration software.

Nearly every time a reference based adjustment of calibration targets results in an improved match to print. 

neil barstow

colourmanagement

[NB, colourmanagement · Accepted solution]

Hi

I believe that your issue is due to the way that non color managed application programs interface with high gamut monitor screens.

Some application developers still have not implemented color management (so the application has no way of adapting the data it send to your screen to provide correct appearance, it seems the W10 image viewer and IE are the ones affecting you adversely.)

It's already been suggested that you stop using the applications that cause you problems but that may not be an answer that you are willing to implement.

If you don't mind ceasing to use those applications when accuracy of appearance is important, great, but if not why not try this and see if you can work that way*:

I presume you are using Eizo's own Color navigator calibration software?

In your Color navigator calibration software, let's see how you are working right now -

check the first screen that comes up and make a list or screenshot of your current settings for:

Brightness,

Black Level,

White Point,

Gamma,

Priority

if you are happy with the accuracy of your screen in a color managed application these do not need to be altered.

Now go to "create new target", select enter manually, then in the next screen "monitor gamut" select sRGB

this step reduces the gamut of the screen and will stop the oversaturation you're seeing in non color savvy applications.

Set brightness, white point & black level then the tone curve as per your notes

I suggest setting Priority to "standard"

save the setting with an informative name then run a calibration.

That should largely solve the issues you are seeing

*theres a "catch", you are reducing the gamut of your expensive screen to that of sRGB. It's not a ridiculous thing to do but you do need to bear that in mind.

I hope this helps

if so, please do mark my reply as "helpful" and if you're OK now, please mark it as "correct" below, so others who have similar issues can see the solution

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[Bildgigant]

Hey its me again.. Thank you for all your answers the same problem appeared again.. i made a photoshooting and i sent the customers the pictures and she complained that the pictures look very high contrast and damn red.. and shes not satisfied. but on my monitor (this pictue above was taken my a camera so its not accurate but gives an idea whats the difference) soo my monitor shows a professional more yellow lookin picture (in my opinion) and next to it there is my phone with the same picture on it.. and there its damn damn red and saturated.

i know my phone is not calibrated.. but my monitor is .. i calibrated it again yesterday and I exported the pictures out of lightroom cc classic with sRGB for the customer. when I view the same picture on my phone it appeares as shown above..

Because of the big big difference I never know what the customer sees at the end because its completely different from my monitor.. so whats the point then of having a wide gammut calibrated monitor if the result is at the end whats shown on the left? Can anyone help me to fix that? would save me a lot of trouble with future customers :S

I know it will never be 100% the same but such a big difference.. i never had that before... is there maybe some settings wrong with the export in lightroom? but.. hmm on my desktop the jpgs look the same too like in lightroom.. just if I view it in another monitor its like a different picture.. worse..but I always add the sRGB profile like i should.

Thank you in advance!

- Lighroom CC classic (newest version)
- Photos taken with nikon D7200 as camera raw
- Mintor fresh calibrated with spyder5pro and color navigator 6 (newest version)

- eizo cs270 monitor

[Per Berntsen]

I never know what the customer sees at the end because its completely different from my monitor.. so whats the point then of having a wide gammut calibrated monitor if the result is at the end whats shown on the left? Can anyone help me to fix that? would save me a lot of trouble with future customers

The fact that the customer sees an over saturated image on their monitor has nothing to do with the fact that you have a wide gamut monitor. You are working with a calibrated monitor, and have exported the image with the sRGB profile embedded – that's the best you can do. The over saturation seen by the customer is most likely caused by (the customer) using a wide gamut monitor, and viewing the image in an application without color management.

You have no control whatsoever over how images display on other people's monitors. If they have a standard gamut monitor, the image will probably display more or less correctly, or hopefully within "acceptable". If they have a wide gamut monitor, and are using an application without color management, it will be over saturated – it's inevitable.

What you can do is to tell your clients to only use color managed applications to view your work. Most image viewers are unfortunately not color managed, but the free Irfanview is, as long as color management is enabled under Settings.

[D Fosse]

That's a pretty horrible color cast on your "screenshot" there...do you see that as neutral? In that case there really is a problem.

Lots of phone screens have extended gamuts these days - but obviously no color management to remap into that extended gamut. So sRGB blows up.

My position on this is very simple: It's their problem, not mine. If they want to see it as it was intended, they need a properly color managed system, and I will tell them so. End of story.

[Test Screen Name]

What do you see when YOU view it on a standard PC, with normal monitor, colour calibrated? Your client shouldn't be the first one to discover an issue! It could be the client's setup (or lack of it) but possibly something has gone awry with your settings, workflow, or the monitor calibration you use as a visual target.

[Test Screen Name]

I have a thought/question, in these days where screen viewing is the norm and clients are often uncalibrated. Is it the norm to exchange sample pictures at the start of a client relationship, to establish that their viewing conditions are acceptable to you both?

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi,

You've received some good recommendations and yes, sending files in sRGB is pretty much the best you can do.

You asked about exchanging a sample picture - yes - I have recommended clients to do that in the past.

But, I believe that to do that properly, you need some kind of reference for them to view as a "master".

For that I use a combination of composite test image as a digital file and a proof of the same image.

The one I use is available here for free download: https://www.colourmanagement.net/downloads_listing/

I hope this helps

if so, please do mark my reply as "helpful", so others who have similar issues can see the solution

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[spawklz]

Hi.

Just a follow-up to a topic that continues to confuse me.

When I share a photo digitally, I always convert to srgb and embed the profile when I export to jpg, but when I open the image in the Windows default photo app, I'm freaked out every time, because shadow detail is almost non-existent and colours are over-saturated. If I move the app window to my second monitor, which is not calibrated, they look more like I intended. I find the whole thing kind of hard to come to terms with, but should I assume that whoever sees the photo on an uncalibrated monitor (or in a colour-managed app on a calibrated monitor) will see more or less what I intended? (Of course with the potentially huge variation between monitors and display settings - I just don't want my photo to stick out in a negative way.)

I've always compared photo editing to mixing music on studio speakers, where the goal is to make the music sound good on all systems - but maybe this is a bad analogy? Should we use monitor calibration more for specific goals/targets? (print vs. web use, etc.?) Would it even be better to not calibrate the monitor if you want to get more of an approximation of what other viewers will see on their monitors?

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi Spawkiz

I totally agree with testscreenname

I too would guess that your main screen (the one that shows the over-saturation) is a wide gamut screen.

Because of the current move towards wide gamut displays non color management savvy applications are becoming unusable.

You are right to convert to and embed sRGB so that any color management aware app will read the profile and deal with the numbers properly en route to the display.

But applications that don't know about embedded profiles are doomed now that wide gamut is taking over.

Test this by making an Adobe RGB file (this will be nearer to your display gamut so the colors should not get overblown).

Open that Adobe RGB file in your Windows default photo app, does it look pretty much OK now?

BUT don't put those files online because they'll look awful unsaturated on a "normal" screen

Next, ask yourself why Microsoft don't bother to color manage that rather important photo app.

MIcrosoft left the ICC [International Color Consortium] long long ago and announced the WCS [windows color system], which was going to be much better than what the ICC were doing.

As you can see it's not there yet.

This is not an anti Win rant, I rather like Windows and I really do want what they do to work ;~}

Actually, looking back I see I answered your question [and you marked it as correct] on May 17, 2018

Did you try calibrating the Eizo to sRGB gamut as I suggested back then?

You're right that out in the wide world most users know nothing about screen calibration color management, that’s why it needs to be automated, the sooner applications that cannot read ICC profiles are no longer available the better. In my days of TV spot directing I remember the ec dit suite with all its high end broadcast gear and a lowly CRT in the corner so we could se what Joe Bloggs would likely see at home.

Maybe it is worth having a non calibrated win system in your office so you can test what "man in the street? will see (if what he sees is important to you.

Remember though, s/he views everyones photos like that and is used to it. Yours wont stand out.

I hope this helps

if so, please do mark my reply as "helpful" and if you're OK now, please mark it as "correct" below, so others who have similar issues can see the solution

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[spawklz]

Thanks for the detailed reply, NB.

Actually, I don't think my monitor at home is technically a wide gamut (Dell u2715h), but the HP ZDisplay I use at work is, I guess. I'm seeing the same thing at home, though, so I've got a feeling that the fact that I've calibrated the monitor with a Spyder 5 Pro plays a part, whether the monitor is high gamut or not.

This is why I'm concerned with what users with uncalibrated displays see in their end, and why I'm wondering if you could go so far as to make two completely separate edits if you want a photo for both online and print use? But, yeah, when I drag the Windows Photos App over to my uncalibrated display next to the ZDisplay, the colours revert to normal, so I suppose I'll just have to get used to the imminent shock of seeing it on the main display...

PS! I'm not the OP, so I just used an existing thread rather than start a new one; the previous answer you referred to was a different user.

Cheers

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi

good to help, thanks for thanks

I feel your particular HPZ display must be wider gamut than sRGB - or it would not exaggerate the colors.

This is reinforced by your comment about dragging to the other screen when the appearance corrects itself.

Calibration and profiling a screen can't increase the physical ability - the gamut - in any case the windows photo app you mention is only using part of the calibration - not the profile - that’s the problem.

*All data going to the screen travels through the video card (calibration loads a corrective table into the video card before profiling takes place)

And  - yes, I would DEFINITELY make a separate edit for print (maybe Adobe RGB) and the Internet (sRGB).

That’s standard practice.

When you've finished your photo file duplicate flatten any layers and convert to sRGB

did you try this:

Test this by (converting your sRGB file to Adobe RGB, thus) making an Adobe RGB file (this will be nearer to your display gamut so the colors should not get overblown).

Open that Adobe RGB file in your Windows default photo app, does it look pretty much OK now?

BUT don't put those files online because they'll look awful unsaturated on a "normal" screen

I hope this helps

if so, please do mark my reply as "helpful"

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

g

[D Fosse]

Dell U2715H is standard gamut.

So is the HP line loosely known as Z Display. They do have wide gamut models, but these are all known by the "Dreamcolor" designation (24, 27 and 30 inch models).

So it seems likely that your Spyder isn't working as it should. Can you post side by side screenshots from Photoshop (color managed) and Windows Photos (not color managed)?

We also need a screenshot of your Photoshop Color Settings. Have you changed anything there?

Single screen or dual screen setup? Which one is primary?

[D Fosse]

Oh, and before making the screenshot from Photoshop, set the notification area bottom left like this. This way we see right away what the document's embedded profile is:

[spawklz]

Well, I'm certainly only slightly less confused now.

Just a heads up: the following tests have been performed on my home system, with the Dell U2715H.

NB, colourmanagement​

When I open the already exported jpg (sRGB) in PS and convert it to Adobe RGB - just like you said, it looks a lot closer to the original (TIFF open in PS on calibrated display) when I open it in the Windows Photos app, also on the calibrated display

Also, regarding separate edits for print and web: do you mean making two completely separate versions, each edited from scratch, one tailored for specific printing hardware? I normally just do all the edits in one TIFF file and then export it to jpg/srgb for screen use and send the (flattened) TIFF to print.

D Fosse​

I tried to illustrate the difference here, as per your suggestion, using the Windows Snipping Tool, which somehow captured the discrepancy better than a simple print screen. I don't understand why the Spyder would not be working as it should, though?

EDIT: the difference between the two versions doesn't really translate too well in the uploaded screenshot - it's much more pronounced when I open the image in the Windows Photos app.

Thanks again, for bearing with me.

[D Fosse]

I think this is basically the difference between color managed (Photoshop) and not color managed (Photos).

The Photoshop version certainly looks more healthy. The non-color managed "Photos" version has crushed shadows - which, incidentally, increases contrast and therefore also increases saturation.

Now, before going on, it's important that you understand the distinction between calibration and monitor profile. They are two entirely different things. Calibration is just a simple, basic correction to the monitor itself. It affects everything globally.

The profile, on the other hand, doesn't adjust anything. It's a description, a map, of the monitor's behavior in its calibrated state. But it's much more detailed and accurate than the calibration. This profile is used in a standard profile conversion from document profile into the monitor profile. This is performed by the application, on the fly, and these remapped RGB numbers are sent to the monitor, thus representing the file accurately on screen.

What I think here is either that the calibration is faulty, or that the monitor natively has a very pronounced dip in the shadows. I suspect the latter.

The profile corrects for this shadow dip, so Photoshop displays correctly.

[spawklz]

Thanks, D Fosse​ - I think I have a better understanding of the concept now. I guess the real threshold here is accepting that the only way other people can see the photo exactly how you intended is for them to view it on your display or a print copy that you're happy with.

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your insight!

[TheDigitalDog]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/NB%2C+colourmanagement  wrote

Hi Spawkiz

Because of the current move towards wide gamut displays non color management savvy applications are becoming unusable.

But applications that don't know about embedded profiles are doomed now that wide gamut is taking over.

And even when using sRGB, non color managed applications are iffy at best. They have no idea what sRGB means, nor the condition of the display via a profile. What we need people to understand is, sRGB or otherwise, if you care about color appearance, you use color managed applications:

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

The downsides of an all sRGB workflow

sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices

The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology

Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4

Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

[TheDigitalDog]

When people talk of sRGB, one of the first questions should be, which sRGB?

sRGB profile comparison

I'd go with this one:

sRGB 

[D Fosse]

This is very simple: with a wide gamut monitor you can _only_ use color managed applications. No exceptions. That's the deal.

Without full color management, sRGB will always display oversaturated.

That's all there is to it.

[Test Screen Name]

Sparwklz, I'm guessing your main monitor is a wide gamut monitor. If so, read on... this is what wide gamut monitors do, by design. It's what you paid extra for it to do! Only colour managed apps will look right: ALL OTHER APPS (such as Windows 10 default photo app) will be wrong, by design.