[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

Report · May 06, 2013

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

Report · Jul 18, 2016

Possibly in a way

Report · Aug 09, 2016

As a part-time freelancer who works in 2 or 3 month spurts twice a year, I refuse to "rent" software for a full year and keep paying "rent" year after year. Why should I keep paying for the same programmes over and over ad infinitum? I'll stick with my CS6 as long as possible. I'll even keep my current desktop operating system until it dies, as when I updated to OS X 10.11.6, my InDesign "broke". Hopefully it will work with OS Sierra, but Adobe is no longer offering any kind of support for CS6, essentially forcing designers to keep paying and paying. Adobe doesn't care because I'd say the majority of people believe "what can we do?" and just rent the software like so many sheep. I'm staying away from CC altogether, it's too expensive and, frankly, Adobe is ripping everyone off with their "subscriptions".

Report · Jun 14, 2013

I'm glad a lot of you share my concerns on Adobe's decission to force users into a subscription.

Everything has propably been said in this topic, but It's important that Adobe (and everyone else) takes notice of everyone's opinion.

Adobe's business model needs to change and they won't do that if not enough people speak out.

Therefor I'll contribute to this forum with my personal reasons not to subscribe to the Creative Cloud:

Not being able to open your files, created/saved with Adobe CC, after ending the subscription is totally onacceptable.
It's more expensive. When you already own CS6 (and paid full price for it), you'lle get a lousy 50-60% discount for the first year. It gets even more expensive when you're forced to pay localized prices when you're not living in the UK or US. For example: I live in the Netherlands, but prefer to work with English software. Still I'll have to pay extra for a 'localized' version which supports all languages. I couldn't care less. Don't want to be forced to pay extra for translations I don't need. The regular monthly fee for CC here is: $81,87 (€ 61,49), a whopping $ 982,44 / year (incl. VAT). That's more than twice the price I used to pay for upgrades. Without skipping a single one.
People should pay for an upgrade because it's worth it, not because they have to! Adobe should continue to convince/tempt people to upgrade to the latest version because of awesome new features. Innovation jay ! Capitalism nay!
For how long can anybody using CC export files to a CS version ? In the design industry it's all about collaboration. Not being able to exchange documents kills that. Looking at InDesign CS.x you can save back at least one or two versions AND have older versions of InDesign (you bought) installed to repeat that process.

Report · Jun 14, 2013

CashCow is no accepptable solution for me. Losing full editable access to my archive is the main concern and the absolute knock-out for this. I also lost all my trust to that company (I once liked). So I will use two MAC PRO G5 (2 x 6 Core) to hold CS6 MasterCollections and my archive the next years beside new and alternative workflows. We have already configured them, and I hope they will do that job beside some other tasks for the next 2-3 years. I also think (when I have a look to all that pis.ed of professionals between my business partners), that there will come up competitors in the next years. Since May 6, we already using more and more alternatives to Adobe in case of video-editing, classical 2D design and most parts of web-publishing. The only thing that really hurts is PS. But I think, CS6 is good for the next 1-3 years. My hope is, that there will come up good alternatives, as Adobe forces exactly that. The Apps have reached a quality, where it is still very difficult to offer real innovation (where are the great features within all upgrades last years? Featuring out an new GUI-color???). An VIP from Adobe also said, that there will be more and more cloud-functionalities and other similar stuff in future updates (and not so much innovation/add ons in core-apps). Good for those, who think, they can´t live without that stuff - but not for me. And if: I can buy seperately (as long as Adobe doesn´t buy them all to hold it´s monopoly-state as in the past).
So I also think: The great show/coming out on June 17 will be the last very big upgrade for a long, long period. They must catch as many Cloudies as possible. And so, they concentrated all that new stuff to this point. From thereon (and till the point where there are no longer advantages for old CS6 users to change) they are payed wether they innovate or not (would be glad to be in a similar situation).
Adobes leader board is selling out it´s stock (Do they realy trust into their own business model? They trust into rising stock prices?). I wonder how prices for the CashCow (CC) will rise after the "Catching Cloudies" period ends. Getting into dependency means: It´s not easy to jump off the cloud BS, after a couple of years (lose of fully editable archive = catastrophe for professionals).
After this "Catching Cloudies" period (and no longer income of CS users) - Cloud is the only income for Adobe. Be aware!
With the new MAC Pro, it´s like with Adobe Upgrades: We first have to see, how good they will fit into workflows before to be established. There where many workflow-breaking upgrades in the last years. BtW: The new MP seams not to be the great thing. I´m very disapointed of that. Especialy by the missing upgrade-ability. It´s more a BigMacMini (Realtime 3D editing graphic card?). Apple is a little bit similar to Adobe: Seems they ignore the needs of real professionals. Looking more to hype-trends and funware.
Also: Never had a problem to pay good money for good solutions.
But I´m against to be forced into dependency. No matter if it´s with drugs or software.
My point behind Adobe is made.
Thanks to your programmers for creating my brushes and tools trough the last decades. Great work.
To your leader-borad: Enough is enough. Fly away on your cloud.

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CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

Report · Jun 14, 2013

Nearby 32.000 signers at change.org is a great number (if you know how difficult it is to bring people to activity).
But the better number are the only - not overwhelming - 500.000 subscripers.
And I take every bet: Most of them (see the questions at help-forums) are newcomers with low budget, who think the "low fees" are a good base (entrance). People, who mostly not invest into a solution of a few thousand $. Wait, how long they stay, when fee-prices have to rise.
For professionals, there are so many lacks and horrible boarders, that they HAVE TO FORCE them.

Let´s see, how succesfull their solution was, at the end of the year.
The amount of subscribers dictates the price of fees in future. As there is no other income for Adobe from thereon.
Let´s wait and see.
My sugestion: Keep CS6 alive as long as you can (they let you - for the momnet they can´t lose that income, without losing face at stock-markets), search for alternatives!!!

In my eyes it´s a great risk for Adobe. And their Image already has been damaged (They are ranking below MS in my list - and it´s difficult to get that position).
Time will tell.

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CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

Report · Jun 14, 2013

Hello A for Design,

I'm a designer, also from The Netherlands and I agree with every line you have written.

I would say...skip Indesign..... Don't bet on one horse. Almost every design I make comes from QuarkXpress 9.5... only 5%

comes from Indesign... 🙂

No CC for me. I use the CS6 version and want to keep it alive as long as possible...

Report · Jun 14, 2013

Funny you mention QuarkXpress.

It lost more 80% of it's market because Quark didn't care about their customers.

Thankfully some years ago they replaced the management team and started to listen to the customers. They should've done that many years before.

For now InDesign CS6 is fine with me.

Report · Jun 14, 2013

Very funny indeed. You're right about Quark but the have changed a lot.

During version 8 they even contacted me and asked what changes I wanted to see in version 9....

So they are listening now but pay a big price for not doing so 10 years ago.

I happy with CS6 and also InDesign works fine.

But I'm happy that I can choose between these two.

Op 14 jun 2013, om 14:07 heeft A for Design het volgende geschreven:

Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
created by A for Design in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion
Funny you mention QuarkXpress.

It lost more 80% of it's market because Quark didn't care about their customers.
Thankfully some years ago they replaced the management team and started to listen to the customers. They should've done that many years before.

For now InDesign CS6 is fine with me.
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Report · Jun 14, 2013

I have similar issues ... the european commission on competition is a great place to voice your concers... there direct email is

comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu

Report · Mar 29, 2014

Just canceled my creative cloud subscription. Saddly I am paying the penalty to ditch the service. Still I am happy to get off the Adobe train. I only signed on to it for newer version of Dreamweaver, but only installed Dreamweaver and avoided installing the other products like Photoshop, Ilustrator and Indesign. I didn't want to get trapped into having to keep on the Adobe train and was always looking for way off. I'm pretty sure I have found other alternatives that will work for me. I will just continue to use CS6 untill I can't. Any clients I have, have been informed I will only accept CS6 formats. Seems to be alot of people out there thinking the same thing. Sad, as I had always liked adobe products and will miss them down the road.

Mike

Report · Mar 30, 2014

yeah, we had the same thing. Of the 90 or so companies we deal with on a regular basis for exchanging artwork, only 3 of them are using CC and we only had a file we couldn't access because of it once. We installed a demo on a test computer and saved the format to CS6 compatible and have not had another problem with this since.

Two of the three companies I know of that used CC were using pirated versions and have since stopped using CC, reverting instead to CS6.

Interesting that it used to be that Adobe's permissiveness towards piracy and cracks was the key to gaining market dominance, resulting in more paying customers when these people grew up (and saved up)... now their policy towards CC is creating no forward goal for those users to save up for and is rapidly eroding that market dominance that they got because of rampant piracy...

This results in less pirates because of less market dominance.

12 million paying customers in the days before CC -> 1.8 million users with CC -> ?

What's this trend going to look like in 5 years time? Are people going to hang on to their aging CS6 packages?

Will they become part of the slowing trend to upgrade to CC?

Who will step up to fill Adobe's shoes? or will their "Suite" mentality fade away while the fragmented choices take over the market?

Report · Mar 30, 2014

1.8m licenses, many of which are on first year promo pricing. When the hammer drops, the pain comes with it. And then, invariably, a greedy monopoly like Adobe will raise rates and put the screws to them even more.

Report · Mar 30, 2014

eschelar wrote:
yeah, we had the same thing. Of the 90 or so companies we deal with on a regular basis for exchanging artwork, only 3 of them are using CC and we only had a file we couldn't access because of it once. We installed a demo on a test computer and saved the format to CS6 compatible and have not had another problem with this since.
Two of the three companies I know of that used CC were using pirated versions and have since stopped using CC, reverting instead to CS6.

I can't tell you the number of times I've dealt with clients and other companies where the question is - "you're not using CC are you?"

CC has a negative connotation with the industry professionals I've dealt with. Adobe will eventually figure it out but by then the damage is done and the once loyal customers will have moved on.

Report · Mar 31, 2014

Complety right… I'm a happy CS6 user and QuarkXpress rules in my workflow….

Op 30 mrt. 2014, om 20:57 heeft TheCoroner9 <forums_noreply@adobe.com> het volgende geschreven:

Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
created by TheCoroner9 in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion

Report · Oct 10, 2014

FYI,

I just had a situation recently where an InDesign file and assets were given to me, It was saved in InDesign CC, (large NYC agency) I was unable to open or use the files, (I have CS6) the client was also unable to save the files in a previous version of InDesign so I was unable to complete the task.

Is this the same for all CC files/documents? that they can not be saved in a previous version like CS6-5 etc?

Can someone with CC answer this? or is it just InDesign CC files that can not be saved to previous versions? or was my client not as davy as he could have been??

I refuse to subscribe to the CC business model. Its a personal thing, I just despise the rent culture business model, There is no way it will be customer friendly of customer efficient in the long term. ) + Adobe customer service really sucks and you know you will be wasting hours of productivity trying to get help there.

I have been using Adobe products since 1994 PS 1.0 and Adobe has been the ground breaking innovators of all software for computer creatives since forever.

I am a huge fan of their products and innovations (even if they are the most arrogant of companies with poor customer service)

I am one of those users (Film Production Designer) who own most of the Creative Suite CS6, but mostly use Photoshop, occasionally InDesign and Illustrator and Premiere once or twice a year, I often work abroad in locations where internet access is slow and sometimes non existent for days/weeks at a time and I can not afford any interruption in my workflow, ever.

I think back to The Thomas & John Knoll days at Adobe, where it was all about innovation and invention, now its all about shareholder profits (nothing wrong with that) as long as the innovation and invention keep up. To be honest, nothing really substantial has changed in PS since 4 or 5, sure there are some tricky fixes and tools and gimmicks that make the workflow a little easier and faster but its the same thing with new bells and whistles really. I hire graphic designers and retouchers still using CS2-3 and its all good.

I think if Adobe had of concentrated on more security and focused more energy on making software piracy impossible their profits would have quadrupled. I think CC was part of that thinking but CC it only works for a very limited type of professional user, office bound corporate type designers/photographers/illustrators

I am hoping Adobe will offer both the CC service and the previous upgrade purchase style in the future to best serve their customer base.

From the posts I have read on this topic I understand 1.3Million users switched to CC, does not seem like many considering how aggressive Adobe marketed cheap introductory offers and campaigned for CC, + I know a substantial amount of Adobe's profits last year was from people like me who went and upgraded all their Adobe Software to CS6 as I have no intention of joining the Creative Cloud. (interesting how they did not disclose or itemize last years profits, unlike previous years)

It will take a while but I can see many other companies beginning to see the void Adobe have created (even Apple) and you will see great alternatives arriving in the next year or two, (so if you have not already, upgrade to CS6 and wait. I think Apples new OS "Yosemite" has a new software called "Photo" which may the beginning of some serious competition for Adobe, I really hope so, competition seems to get everyone back on track.

Report · Oct 10, 2014

I'm not on CC, but it sounds like NYC can still export to IDML for you, although it takes awhile to export and to open (ie step away for lunch while it's opening).

I'm with you on everything you've said in your post, rpearson1. Software doesn't make good graphic designers, but I've been loyal to Adobe since '94 because they worked hard to support us and like their software, but their philosophy has changed from making customers loyal to holding them captive. For over a decade, I've admired a local graphic designer who turns out exceptional design on pre-CS versions. I am confident that I can use "outdated" Adobe programs or competitive software and still make my clients happy.

Report · Nov 24, 2015

I just want to chime in here as well. I love the Adobe suite of products. I love them enough that I frequently recommend them to people... friends, family, coworkers, sometimes even strangers. However, I myself am a hobbyist user - I'm not a professional, and I only count as a student on those occasions when I sign up for some random online course or another. Which is to say, some months I'll use a couple of the apps nearly every day - but there are also stints where I go several months without opening even one, or may just need them to open a random project file or two for some tangential purpose.

I've been clinging to my CS5.5 license since CC arrived, hoping that eventually the kinks would get worked out and there would be some sort of subscription solution that fits me (or that Adobe would go back to offering perpetual licenses alongside the cloud subscription), but I still don't feel like it has happened. The subscription cost for the photography suite seems reasonable, especially if you can qualify as a student, but I tend to light up a lot more of the suite in my tinkering. So to continue using Adobe software the way I do currently, I would need the full suite. However, I can't justify paying $40 a month every month for something I'm just doing for fun - even if I can get an edu subscription, $20 a month is a pretty hefty fee.

Here's what I think I want, assuming perpetual licenses will not be coming back. 😞 First off, I would move to CC *immediately* if I could get the full suite for $5 a month - even if it was $10 a month, I would seriously consider it. But seeing as how that's probably not in the realm of possibility, I think a pricing tier like this would work for me (using current edu pricing as a baseline):

$5 for the first single app

$2 for each additional app after the first

$10 for the photography suite (or better yet, pick N apps, where N is the number currently in the photography suite)

$20 for the full suite

With this pricing model, I would probably find a way to move to CC. I wouldn't be 100% happy, because I'd probably only subscribe to the apps I use most, while currently I use a lot more... but there would be enough benefits in CC to make it work.

Report · Nov 24, 2015

Another pricing model I could go for:

Assign a "point" cost to each of the apps. The bigger + more popular apps like Photoshop and After Effects would cost more "points". Subscriptions pricing tiers would then give you a certain number of points that you could use to pick a set of apps for the month. For example:

After Effects - 5 points

Audition - 2 points

Dreamweaver - 2 points

Illustrator - 3 points

Lightroom - 3 points

Photoshop - 4 points

$10 - 10 points

$15 - 20 points

$20 - 40 points

I could make that work as a hobbyist, especially if I could change the set of apps I have selected every month. I could simply plan my projects in advance, and would be happy again because I'd essentially still have access to the whole suite - just not all at the same time. That's a little lame, but I'd be ok with it as a solution. The only thing then is that I wouldn't want to be bothered to select a new set as soon as the 1st of the month rolled around. The ideal user experience would be to let me pick my set of apps initially, and then unlock it for reconfiguration after a month locked in on that set. If I'm still happy with the current set of apps, I don't have to do anything. But as soon as I want to make a change, I can go in and do it once the month is up. Doing so would start a new lockdown period.

Report · Nov 24, 2015

Even better still would be if there was a flexible pricing option based on the aforementioned "point" system. For instance, I select the $15 plan and get 20 points. Which is to say, I can't exceed 20 points without changing my subscription. But if I use less, I am only charged up to the previous pricing tier. So for example if I only use one app in June, then in June I am only charged $10 because my utilization falls below the $10 pricing tier. This makes the point tracking a bit harder, but I think it would still be possible:

- When you select an app to add to your current subscription set, the points used to select it are put into lockdown

- After 1 month, the app is removed from the active set, the points come out of lockdown and are placed back into the pool

- If I want to use the app again, I am prompted to allocate the points again a la "This app is not currently part of your subscription - you can add it for 4 points. You currently have 8/20 points available. Add it now? Y/N"

- Unallocated points are tracked to determine their total duration, and if their utilization is low enough to fall below the cost of the previous pricing tier, then that (lower) charge is applied instead

I think this fits very nicely with hobbyist usage because you essentially pay to play. If you don't play for a month, you don't shell out a bunch of money for nothing. And you still get to pick what you play with. It is a little complicated, but I'm willing to bet it would still appeal to a lot of my user segment - maybe it could be offered in addition to the "regular" plans just as one more option. But this way us hobbyists don't get cut out. (:

Report · Nov 24, 2015

One of the most efficient methods to drive away customers is a confusing price/subscription model. I do not think your point system would work that well in practice.

The landscape is changing: excellent alternatives are now available for the hobbyist/semi-pro user base.

Premiere: BlackMagic DaVinci Resolve (win/mac, free for up to 4k editing) - impressive NLE features were added to this industry standard colour grading software.
After Effects: BlackMagic Fusion (win/mac, free for up to 4k editing) - special effects and compositing software, which outperforms AE in many respects. Perhaps not as suitable for motion graphics, but far more advanced for visual effects and compositing work. Combine with Blender (free, mac/win/linux) for 3d work.
Photoshop: Photoline (mac/win) and Affinity Photo (mac). Krita for digital painting (win/linux/mac, free)
Illustrator: Affinity Designer (mac), Xara Designer Pro (win), CorelDraw (win)
Edge Animate: Hype (mac), Google Web Designer (mac/win, free), Scirra Construct (win), NodeFire (win)
Flash character animation: Anime Studio (mac/win)
Flash interactive app/games: Scirra Construct (win), and many others
Dreamweaver: PineGrow (win/mac/linux), various excellent editors (Netbeans, SublimeText, Brackets, and more - most editors are 'better' to code in than DW)

All perpetual licenses, and very affordable (except for CorelDraw). As a hobbyist or semi-pro user, there is no need at all to become a digital serf in Adobe's digital Serfdom.

Report · Nov 24, 2015

Yes, it is a bit complicated - and indeed the thought was bouncing around in the back of my mind that this could be a turnoff for some customers. However, I still think the model makes a lot of sense for the hobbyist segment, and do strongly believe that another pricing option is necessary to fill the gap. If I were in charge of rolling out such a plan, I wouldn't give it primary advertising exactly for the reasons you suggest, but would make the option available as some sort of "advanced subscription plan". You know, like when there are the two huge hero style buttons for Basic and Premium plans, and then below those there's that small text link that says "Additional Pricing Plans".

To your other points, yes, I certainly agree that there are a lot of software options out there. But Adobe has some of the best.

Report · Nov 27, 2015

Thanks for this reply, really curious if you have any ideas for a great replacement to InDesign. I am a carpenter professionally with an architecture and design background and although I love the Adobe products they have simply put them way too far out of my price range. I simply can't afford them anymore. thanks in advance.

Report · Nov 27, 2015

There is a reason why InDesign is missing from my list: I have not found a good replacement yet for my InDesign CS6. QuarkXPress: been there, done that - I surely do not wish to return to that mess.

Scribus is okay, but really pales in comparison to InDesign. Next year the developers behind the Affinity alternatives are releasing an InDesign alternative for Mac. Perhaps that will work out.

But fair is fair: InDesign is a tough act to follow for the competition. For now I will stick with my CS6 license.

Report · Nov 27, 2015

thanks for the reply, that has been my understanding (impression) as well, hope Affinity gets some workable together!

Report · Dec 07, 2015

InDesign also has the most version compatibility problems as well.

I still remember trying to work with another company in the US and we had 4 different people involved, including the print shop (this was before CC). Versions we were running included CS3 (print shop), CS6 (myself and others in the art department), CS5.5 (my home computer and laptop prior to upgrading) and CS4 (US customer).

He sent the original document, we prepared his document, sent it to him and he was unable to open it. I was also unable to open it at home to figure out what the problem was, so we lost a day due to time zone conflicts, the next day, I opened in CS6 and found no problems... wasn't until the next day that we figured out that he was using CS4. Even trying to save the document for CS4, it was still impossible to open it. I had to download a pirated version to test it on a test machine to figure it out too.

Then to top it off, when it was finished, we got to the print shop (small mom&pop deal as is common here in Asia) and they had CS3. Fortunately, that wasn't a problem because we presented PDF for print rather than ID files... but just goes to show what a PITA ID can be for version mismatches.

It boggles my mind that Adobe still hasn't even been able to get their mailouts working properly. I still get authentication red flags on my notification emails about activity on this thread. And when I'm typing in this very box, every time I create a line break, about halfway into the next sentence, it puts me up a line for no reason. And the line breaks get doubled too. I've got 15 empty lines under this paragraph.

What a ridiculous mess.

Vegas Pro 13 was my go-to non-Adobe program, but DaVinci Resolve is looking more attractive every single day.