Flexbox - run-around

[osgood_]

Does anyone know if a Flex column can run-around another Flex column?

For example: I have 2 columns set as 50% wide each in a Flex parent container. At a specific break point I set the 2nd column, which contains a background image, to 300px high.

What I want to happen is for the 1st Flex column, which contains text, to runaround (under the image) to fill up the width of the parent Flex container.

I can do this conventionally using float/block at the break point but as I'm using Flexbox it would be good to find a Flexbox only solution, maybe it's not Flexible enough to wander outside of a column structure?

Os

[pziecina]

BenPleysier  wrote

Thanks for the pointer, much appreciated. Muse, here I come.

Having played with Muse, i may join you

[pziecina]

I would be interested in knowing exactly how someone is defined as being a web developer, as i have yet to read any definition by anyone that would cover every possible combination of skills involved, or even define the requirements to meet those individual skills.

Most people though include their own skills when defining web developer,.

[Rob_Hecker2]

I would be interested in knowing exactly how someone is defined as being a web developer,

In that Sitepoint survey 30% described themselves as full stack developers. I raised my eyebrow at that.

It's always interesting with professions that have no required license, as there is (thank god) with the medical and legal professions.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Rob+Hecker2  wrote

It's always interesting with professions that have no required license, as there is (thank god) with the medical and legal professions.

I'm a self trained brain surgeon, but for some reason i have not found anyone that will employ me or had any patients.

[Rob_Hecker2]

I'm a self trained brain surgeon, but for some reason i have not found anyone that will employ me or had any patients.

Don't worry, sir; I googled vasectomy last night and learned all about the procedure. Nurse, please run that Youtube video again.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

I would be interested in knowing exactly how someone is defined as being a web developer

I'll have a stab. 90% of the time they would be capable of imagining a particular workflow and end result, then being able to develop a solution by writting bespoke coding, which quite possible no extension could come close to producing, or if it attempted to couldn't do it exactly as the developer had originally imagined.

The difference is a developer has the skill to turn their ideas or someone elses ideas into reality whilst those that rely on extensions will almost certainly settle for second best as a result of the limited options extensions provide, which quite possible, as they use extensions, would more than fulfil their ambitions.

[pziecina]

Not exactly a definition or a minimum knowledge description, but more of a desired type of person to fill a particular position.

Which is just my point. If i was to say that someone who is a web developer must as part of the skill set required, be fully conversant and able to build the front-end of a site and all the components using all of html5, css and javascript that is part of the w3c specifications. I am 100% certain no current person calling themselves a web developer would fill those simple requirements, and then there is the back end requirerments.

Does a php developer have to know how to code stored procedures, and transactions, and what about those who use C#, and the list goes on.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Not exactly a definition or a minimum knowledge description, but more of a desired type of person to fill a particular position.

Which is just my point. If i was to say that someone who is a web developer must as part of the skill set required, be fully conversant and able to build the front-end of a site and all the components using all of html5, css and javascript that is part of the w3c specifications. I am 100% certain no current person calling themselves a web developer would fill those simple requirements, and then there is the back end requirerments.

Personally I dont think it really matters what you use in terms of coding/technology so long as you can get to the end result without being 90% dependent on someone else holding your hand.

I don't think anyone can claim to be an 'expert' in everything, you have to make choices and try and become efficient and skilled in the choices you make. That makes you a web-developer, in my opinion.

Pointing and clicking certainly doesnt make you a skilled web-developer.

[EbaySeller]

BenPleysier  wrote

Maybe this will give you an idea of the sort of work that I do. This is a site that is ready for the owner to insert the data, the inputs to date is an example for him to work on.

Your third party extension produced over 100 validation errors and almost as many warnings on a very basic page. If I were you I'd be embarrassed to announce that as being the kind of work I do. Hmm it makes we wonder what kind of coding errors it generates on the server side. Your client gets what they paid for though I guess.

[EbaySeller]

I'm also wondering...

What do you do when a third party provider inevitably ceases further support for their product? Rebuild the site with another third party extension that will inevitably cease continued support? Is this another example of saving time by using third party extensions?

At least with code you've developed it's easy to refactor. Refactor code that's generated by a third party developer? Not so much.

[BenPleysier]

EbaySeller  wrote

Your third party extension produced over 100 validation errors and almost as many warnings on a very basic page. If I were you I'd be embarrassed to announce that as being the kind of work I do. Hmm it makes we wonder what kind of coding errors it generates on the server side. Your client gets what they paid for though I guess.

This is a favourite topic of mine from way back. Do we code according to W3C specs or do we code to what the browsers allow us to. If we go for the former, what happens to vendor prefixes in CSS like -webkit- and -moz-?

.column {

  display: -webkit-box;

  display: -webkit-flex;

  display: -ms-flexbox;

  display: flex;

  -webkit-box-orient: vertical;

  -webkit-box-direction: normal;

  -webkit-flex-direction: column;

  -ms-flex-direction: column;

  flex-direction: column;

  -webkit-box-pack: justify;

  -webkit-justify-content: space-between;

  -ms-flex-pack: justify;

  justify-content: space-between;

}

HTML5 is an extendable language, meaning that we can extend it to suit our requirements. If you have a good look at my example page, you will notice the opening body tag contains is="dmx-app". This is to define the custom elements that are used in the document - near the bottom of the page. For more info on custom elements see Custom Elements: defining new elements in HTML - HTML5 Rocks. Fortunately the validator has recognised this to be valid markup.

As for attributes, in HTML5 we have been blessed with the data_ attribute to enhance our application. Further to this, according to Angular.js the following are all equivalent. In other words, all browsers treat them the same.

<div ng-controller="Controller">
  Hello <input ng-model='name'> <hr/>
  <span ng-bind="name"></span> <br/>
  <span ng:bind="name"></span> <br/>
  <span ng_bind="name"></span> <br/>
  <span data-ng-bind="name"></span> <br/>
  <span x-ng-bind="name"></span> <br/>
</div>

Yet only one passes the validation test. See AngularJS. DMXzone are using the attribute that best suits them into the future.

So what is more important, validation or a solid functioning web-site. As I have said in the past when confronted with the same issue when using the Spry framework, we as 'developers' should not have to adhere to the specs; browsers should. This would automatically route the 'developer' to the right path. At the moment it is a shamozzle.

Thanks for showing me the coding errors. Alongside the attribute ones (that I tend to ignore), there are others that are incorrect and these shall be corrected.

Just for your info, I did go through intensive testing/analysing of each extension prior to purchase. I see these extensions in the same light as you having a library of scripts that you use throughout your projects, the difference being that you hand coded the scripts, with the probable exception of certain widgets, and mine have been coded by someone other than myself. This scenario takes place in many larger development teams where the tasks are shared between backend and frontend developers/designers.

[BenPleysier]

As an after thought, and to give more insight into my madness, I have followed the same strategy throughout my working life. For instance, I would get my own tool room to quote on machining dies, jigs and fixtures alongside 3rd party suppliers. Quite often the project was outsourced because it was cheaper for the same or better quality product.

I have outsourced the writing of scripts because it is cheaper and of a better quality than if I were to do so myself. I got hooked on extensions during the InterAkt/ADDT era. Prior to that I would work till the early hours of the morning to get a project finished.

[BenPleysier]

And as for not complaining assumption, what is the use of complaining here when I can go directly to where it matters. Low standards? Another insinuation without facts to back it up.

[BenPleysier]

And please do not use Bootstrap as a fact to back up the low standard insinuation. I come across many many websites that successfully use Bootstrap, the latest one that came under my radar is the gradual change of W3Schools.com as can be witnessed here Bootstrap 3 Tutorial

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Its a beautiful sunny day here and I'm in the garden for much of the afternoon, not stuck behind some desk pushing out what is largely boring repetitive coding and even more, pointless websites usually destroyed by the client before they get off the ground, or shortly after if they have access to a CMS.

It's called intermediate retirement training.

What i find interesting, now that my full retirement date is set, is that i am once again enjoying playing and exploring more with what is possible in web development, using what no one would ever consider as 'ready for use'.

And finding that a lot of it is ready for use.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

What i find interesting, now that my full retirement date is set, is that i am once again enjoying playing and exploring more with what is possible in web development, using what no one would ever consider as 'ready for use'.

Strange you should say that. Playing around and adding another string to my bow is far more exciting and satisfying these days.

I think that's why some make the step over to become tutors because departing knowledge is probably more useful than just knocking out 'another' website, much of what is repetitive, extension or no extension.

[pziecina]

O/K,

This is a serious question. I normaly describe myself as a front-end developer, i am not an expert by any meens, but i do know how to code and just as importantly how to read and apply correctly most of the w3c specs concerning html5, css and the javascript api's. I would however have to refer to them for specifics in a number of use cases in order to ensure what i am doing is correct, for those i do not use on a regular basis.

I do not consider myself more than a beginner in php anymore as i have not even looked at php for over 4years, but i can follow Rob's example code, and i do know what is happening in the code. In my work i have to use C#, (also why i must use VS) but i would classify myself as advanced beginner, (not even intermediate) in C#. I can connect to mysql, mssql and oracle batabases and write the procedures and transactions necessary in order to test what i am doing, (or have done) on the front-end.

If necessary i am certain that a small e-comm site in C# is not beyond my capabilities, including coding the necessary security into the application.

Now if i was to use extensions for php on the back-end in Dw, i would be able to produce a small e-comm site, providing i did not have to modify the code.

The question is, would i be considered a web-developer for the front and back end, for both php and C#, and just as importantly would clients think so, as i often get the answer, (on this forum concerning layout css) that clients are not interested in my skills, providing the site looks good and works correctly.

If clients are only interested in the finished product, then surely the same criteria should apply to back-end, as to front-end, and how i do it is not important?

Note - JavaScript connects the front to back end, in many cases these days, so security is just as important on the front end as the back.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Now if i was to use extensions for php on the back-end in Dw, i would be able to produce a small e-comm site, providing i did not have to modify the code.

The question is, would i be considered a web-developer for the front and back end, for both php and C#, and just as importantly would clients think so, as i often get the answer, (on this forum concerning layout css) that clients are not interested in my skills, providing the site looks good and works correctly.

It really depends what results you require and more importantly what you expect of yourself. I get involved only with projects I know I can do - ie code completely myself, without having to resort to outside help, frameworks or extensions. Although I'm never 100% satisified with the results I feel I am mostly completely in control of what I produce and if needs be can adjust the coding to meet with the requirements of my clients demands. I think I would class myself as a web developer, at what level is debatable but I'm constantly learning and trying to improve my skills through understanding what the code does. This allows me to imagine something and do it or at least have a damn good go rather than just accepting the limitations of extensions or the clumsy coding of a lot of frameworks.

I could stand at a machine clicking switches and knock out 50 pairs of cheap shoes a day or I could hand-craft one pair of expensive shoes. I have much more respect and affiliation for/to the craftman rather than the 'robot', but that's just me. I'm not a craftsman but I have great admiration for those that are because I will never achieve that status. Someone who doesnt have the same desire to get better at what they do will have a totally opposing view.

pziecina  wrote

If clients are only interested in the finished product, then surely the same criteria should apply to back-end, as to front-end, and how i do it is not important?

Its about having pride in your own work and representing your chosen career as much as anything else. I'm only interested in what's inside the bottle but the bottle maker is probably more interested in the bottle.

[pziecina]

Maybe i am being a devils advocate, but i can see yours and Robs view and also Bens view.

And yes i do understand job satisfaction and pride in ones work, (next time you fly, or an aircraft passes overhead, you had better hope so, as one never knows if i had anything to do with that aircraft ).

What i cannot see is why, if the method Ben uses of using extensions works for him, and the design looks good, and functions correctly, it would be wrong for him to use extensions, providing the code they produce works fault free and matches the required standards, (lets leave job satisfaction out of this for now). If both yourself and Rob think that it is unaceptable to develop the back end of a site using extensions, then surerly that is to Bens disadvantage, and would be for self coders like yourself and Rob an advantage when it came to selling your work to clients.

On the front-end -

Most people who call themselves developers think in boxes when it comes to layout, as do many who call themselves designers. The same person will then look at a well designed and layed-out book, but never even attempt creating such a layout for the web, they will then also completely forget that coding has design and style, both of which no matter what one thinks PVII extensions they do produce, and are infinitly better than a lot of what one sees posted in this and other forums.

I think it is wrong to rely on extensions, and not know what the code they produce is doing or how it works, but providing they are not a crutch and the code they produce is no worse than the avarage none extension coders code i have seen produced for the front-end, why not use them. Admitedly i prefer to write my own code, and think it is much more concise and satisfying to do so, but making a living does not exactly feature high in my list.

Maybe i am just complaining about the lack of thought that goes into the front-end these days!

[Rob_Hecker2]

What i cannot see is why, if the method Ben uses of using extensions  works for him, and the design looks good, and functions correctly, it  would be wrong for him to use extensions, providing the code they  produce works fault free and matches the required standards

My only argument was that using extensions limits what can be done. A project can't grow and become more sophisticated.

The example project Ben provided is a good example. It is a fine for what it is, but it uses only the most rudimentary SQL. There is so much more that can be done with SQL.

Oh, I did have a second point, which was that I believe I can type raw PHP and SQL faster than someone can do the same with an extension. Ben claims that using extensions saves him time, but that's just because he isn't fluent in coding.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Maybe i am being a devils advocate, but i can see yours and Robs view and also Bens view.

And yes i do understand job satisfaction and pride in ones work, (next time you fly, or an aircraft passes overhead, you had better hope so, as one never knows if i had anything to do with that aircraft ).

What i cannot see is why, if the method Ben uses of using extensions works for him, and the design looks good, and functions correctly, it would be wrong for him to use extensions, providing the code they produce works fault free and matches the required standards, (lets leave job satisfaction out of this for now). If both yourself and Rob think that it is unaceptable to develop the back end of a site using extensions, then surerly that is to Bens disadvantage, and would be for self coders like yourself and Rob an advantage when it came to selling your work to clients.

I'm not saying it would be to Ben a disadvantage because I don't know what level of coder he is but I would say to the majority of extension users it would be a disadvantage. Someone who only knows html/css yet the website requires a database/server language same thing, it's going to be a disadvantage if you don't have the skills to do the job required. Yes, you can outsource the work but that's usually a pain in the butt trying to collaborate with someone else and why I don't take on projects unless they suit my skils. Do extensions give you that option, it depends on what is required. If you're happy with simple solutions which provide limited options then I see no problem with using an extention but I would draw the line at calling myself a professional web-developer if I relied on extensions the majority of the time, since I could then be settling for a second best solution, an option from those provided by the extension. So yes, having the correct skills and knowledge is an advantage when it come to selling your services in my opinion.

pziecina

On the front-end -

Most people who call themselves developers think in boxes when it comes to layout, as do many who call themselves designers. The same person will then look at a well designed and layed-out book, but never even attempt creating such a layout for the web,

Coming from a graphic design background I've never really thought dtp layouts suit the web, regardless if you can accomplish it or not. I think the ability to do more interesiting web layouts has increased rapidly in recent years and we will hopefully see in the near future a leap to the next level. Boxy style layouts have been around for a number of years and whilst I'm guilty of deploying them myself it would be good to step up to something a bit different but at the moment there is lack of direction apart from those who experiment and experimenting doesn't always transfer well into real world production.

I think it is wrong to rely on extensions, and not know what the code they produce is doing or how it works, but providing they are not a crutch and the code they produce is no worse than the avarage none extension coders code i have seen produced for the front-end, why not use them.

In my opinion they fast become a crutch and stifle your progression because it's far easier to point and click than try and work through different ideas. A case example - practically all Bootstrap users deploy the default Bootstrap navigaition because its the only option they have available through point an click and you're complaining everything is lacking in innovation. You've just answered the question yourself as to why extensions are possibly not that great. Incidentally I too deploy this rather lame horizontal, hamburger style solution on many of the projects I produce. Personnaly I'm sick of the sight at seeing it used on practically every website you visit, Bootstrap or no Bootstrap. But at least I'm not in denial and can if I want do something about it and proababy will, to save my sanity.

pziecina  wrote

Admitedly i prefer to write my own code, and think it is much more concise and satisfying to do so, but making a living does not exactly feature high in my list.

Neither is it mine (at the moment, so maybe I'm looking at it from a biased point of view), but I've always been a person who thinks making money comes second to job satisfaction and knowing you are a skilled operator, gained through your own efforts and desire to want to learn about what you do, especially if you make a living or plan to make a living out of doing it. Everyone has become far to greedy these days cutting corners to maximise their profits whilst possibly not providing a service that is that great. Lots of companies are very successful operating that policy but its not for me and I don't suffer them glady either.

[pziecina]

Thanks for the answers Os and Rob, but here is a question for Ben, and hopefully an extension developer and someone from the Buisness Catalyst community may answer.

Extension for server-side generates sql queries, and the use of json is simply the use of ajax which has been around for 15 years now, so is not really relevant. What is relevant is that when server-side extensions are used with front-end extensions, or frameworks such as bootstrap, then is this really any different to someone using an open-source cms such as wordpress?

Buisness Catalyst, would also i think fall into the same group as extensions and open-source cms's. So is there any difference between using it and an extension?

I'm not getting at you Ben with this question, it is just that i remember you saying a few months ago that a client had decided to allow his son-in-law to build his new site, and that wordpress was used. A few others have also mentioned loosing clients to 'developers' using wordpress, but i cannot remember the details. It would be interesting to hear everyones take on this though, as i cannot see any significant differences between the three options, using extensions (possibly with frameworks), open-source cms, BC.

[pziecina]

As no one has answered, i'm taking it that no one wants to make a judgement call, so i'll explain why i am asking. You will have to bear with me as this will be an as i think of it post.

The reason i am interested is that back in the 80's programming started to introduce drag-and-drop programming interfaces, and quick and dirty configurable programming solutions, (sound farmiliar?). After a few years they started to disapear, as people found they did not work as expected, (about 10 years actually). The reason they were introduced in the first place was naturally to keep development costs down, (or should that be 'maximize profits'), and match the increased demand, as desktops became more proliferant not just in the work place, but also stared to appear in private homes.

Then we had the dot comm boom, when programs like Dw tried, (with some success) to automate table based layouts building, but users of such programs still wanted to be paid the same as before, (lots), naturally sooner or later those paying found that what was being offered did not match what they were told. Then naturally came the dot com crash. Although many left web development, (one way or another) many also survived and changed their ways of working, often competing in a race to the bottom cost wise.

Both the above examples has occured across almost every proffession at some point in history, and often those who did not 'play the game' either moved to a different clientele, (up-market if possible, but more often not), dropped their prices and way of working to match, or went bust.

Open source solutions, (cms's frameworks) and programs that use a visual interface, (eg Muse) are the equivalent of the drag and drop and configurable solutions. Extensions are also part of that configurable solution idea.

If history repeats itself, and it often does. Then at some point those buying the sites we build will be told by their children/grand-childeren that they are paying too much, which i think is starting to happen.

The auto repair industry, also went through a similar situation, but its eventual solution was not to repair components, but replace them. Thus cutting down on the man hours for the repair, which did not reduce the repair bill, as one had either to pay for a new part, or a refurbished part, which often cost more than the repair time would have for the old part. Now that  i think was an interesting solution, as the custommer did not blame the person doing the repair for the increased cost, they blamed the company producing the parts involved.

Now let us suppose, (because those children don't know everything) that if we could think of extensions as those replacement parts, (the refurbished parts), and new parts as the custom built solutions. Then the person using an extension would be the equivalent of a mechanic who fits the parts together, and the one coding the custom coded solution would be the fitter who can also repair and fit the parts, (but does not have to).

Let's also consider the auto industrys solution, in that they also started to offer different grades of new car/autos, ranging from low to luxury brands. With those costing more not necessarily offering more in features, but more in quality.

[Rob_Hecker2]

Compare object oriented programming to extensions. OO frameworks and libraries provide complex solutions to common programming tasks that give the coder vast control, opposed to the limitations of extensions. You still have to know how to code, of course.

For example, I use Swiftmailer (a class in Symfony) for all emails sent from PHP. It gives me the power of SMTP, HTML email and email attachments without my having to understand the underlying code, yet I can use my PHP knowledge to control and extend what the library does. And most OO libraries play very nicely with whatever your own coding style and application structure is.

I did not code in the 70's, but some of my friends coded languages like assembly, fortran and C. I had one friend whose whole career was spent coding assembly. Paula, I know you know what I'm saying, but for those who don't, coding those languages is not fun, it's not fast. It's agonizing and there are no nice wizards, extensions, libraries or anything else to make the job less horrendous. You can't quickly get a visual check of your work but have to work for hours or days before you can even test, and then finding bugs can be very difficult because the system doesn't provide nice error messages or even highlight the line where the problem is.

So now it is cushy, fun and fast to code PHP, Java, or C#. Paula, I see the various frameworks and libraries as providing the "replacement parts," not extensions. For instance, if I decided to use ZendMail instead of Swiftmailer, I think I could make the switch in a day.

[pziecina]

Thanks for the reply Rob, and sometimes i wish those days of assembler and C were back, just for the sense of achivment one felt when it finally worked.

The problems i am having is that i just cannot see where extensions fit in, and to some degree frameworks, if someone considers themselves a developer.

Wordpress users are to me nothing more than people pretending to be developers, unless they modify the code themselves extensively, but if someone does that why use Wordpress.

Because i originally learned in an engineering proffession, i still try to compare the knowledge required for the various engineering qualifications with the knowledge required for the various web development titles, which is probably impossible as one does not have a base qualification to work from, with any web related descriptor.