Flexbox - run-around

[osgood_]

Does anyone know if a Flex column can run-around another Flex column?

For example: I have 2 columns set as 50% wide each in a Flex parent container. At a specific break point I set the 2nd column, which contains a background image, to 300px high.

What I want to happen is for the 1st Flex column, which contains text, to runaround (under the image) to fill up the width of the parent Flex container.

I can do this conventionally using float/block at the break point but as I'm using Flexbox it would be good to find a Flexbox only solution, maybe it's not Flexible enough to wander outside of a column structure?

Os

[Rob_Hecker2]

. . .and to some degree frameworks

PHP frameworks are not like Javascript frameworks or CSS frameworks. They define a way to organize and structure projects. They all include a library of classes.

sometimes i wish those days of assembler and C were back

Not me. Some I knew who worked with those languages retired handsomely before they were 50, but the work was very hard.

but if someone does that why use Wordpress.

A few of my clients asked me to turn my application into a wordpress plug-in. I did a lot of research and created a prototype, but no none wanted to foot the cost. Now I have a serious wordpress plug-in competitor that is appealing to my retreat center client base. Wordpress actually has a very good extensible structure.

[pziecina]

I understand librarys and classes, as i use them in C#, and javascript. Maybe i should look at php again as the last time i used it the zend framework was becomming the big thing, but i dismissed it because of the word, 'framework'.

[BenPleysier]

I was sure that I had replied to your question in post #71. Apparently something went haywire, so here goes again.

There is a vast difference between BC, WP and using the extensions (DMXzone, PVII and WebAssist).

The former is already installed on a server, the second needs to be installed on a server, add an architectural plugin and a template system and you are bound to what the program dictates.

There is no difference between a site that has deployed extensions to one that has been carefully hand coded.

If we have a look at a team of developers working on a project, the various coding/designing tasks will be distributed amongst the members of the team. Some will work on graphics (graphics designers),  others will be deployed on the front end while others will tackle the back end. One of the front end developers may start on developing an RWD layout, another will start on a menu bar etc.etc. I am sure that a time saver for these coders will be the fact that they have code snippets in the closet, pieces of code that have been hand coded for a prior project and can be used for the current project.

Now take the lone hand coding developer. He needs a layout, dives into the snippets  panel in Dreamweaver and finds that he has no corresponding snippet. He/she can either start coding (after all it is only CSS isn't it?) or try to find a faster (read: cheaper) way of getting a working layout. He/she could opt for Bootstrap by adding a few CDN's. But this option includes much more than just the layout and would make the code bloated. Perhaps they could try an extension for Dreamweaver called CSS LAYOUT MAGIC.

But wait, wasn't CSS Layout Magic (CLM) hand coded as well? Aren't the developers of CLM more proficient at coding than I am? Doesn't CLM save me hours of work thus saving my customer? Won't slight afterthoughts be easily translated through the extension?

I am constantly confronted with the above scenario. Do I hand code dynamically driven master/detail pages or do I save myself hours of coding and testing by using an extension? Do I hand code a mass mailing system or do I use an extension?

Choices, choices and never one that will suit everyone.

The irony in all of this, the customer doesn't give a hoot what we do. He wants a functioning mail system and a site that he/she can show off on his/her mobile. they do not want to know about security, but they do want to be on the first Google search page. Take pride in our hand coded master piece and boost our ego? it certainly will not help our purse. In fact we may loose our customer because we are taking too long.

[pziecina]

Thank you for replying Ben,

I understand what you are saying, and it is that lone hand coding developer, (probably because i work in a large team) that concerned me, and the one i have difficulty with. Extension when i read the code produced by them are often much better than any framework code i read. To me providing the person using them knows how the code works, and more importantly could code what they are doing by hand, i did not see any problems, (depending on if too much extra code is produced).

Maybe explaining that as one engineer to another would help.

We both know that in mechanical engineering, how to guides are not just used but recommended. The person using them can ignore them if they know what they are doing, and have done the job before, or follow them to the letter if they are learning that particular process. There is no stigma attatched to both people, and both are working correctly. Both though are expected to know what they are doing, why they are doing it, and the technical aspects concerning it.

Trying to apply that last sentance to Dw extensions, (the what, why and knowledge) is where i fail to understand, as in engineering if someone fails on even one of those three requirements they would not be allowed to do the work, unless they where under constant supervision, (they are an apprentice).

I suppose what i am saying is that only those who know what they are doing, and could do it themselves if required, would be allowed to use use extensions or frameworks in engineering, but in web development there does not appear to be any such restriction, in fact as near as i can see they are used by many for just the opposite reasons.

[osgood_]

Personally, whichever way you look at it, it all comes down to does the 'developer' who is using whatever - extension, framework, open source cms fully know every bit of code of the product they choose to use allowing them to tweak whatever is created out of the box if its not exactly as they visualized or do they just settle for one of the options available. Good developers, who are also creative are generally more discerning than those that resort to using a 'leg-up - its ok' solution. I'm not convince that many so called, or those that like to think of themselves as 'professional' do know what the extension, frameworks, cms does beyond what they are provided with as default.

Leaving amatuers aside, again that might be perfectly acceptable depending on the developers own expectation of themselves. Developers have different levels of expecatation, not always based on what money they can get out of a project. When it comes down to money, especailly in  a team environment, that's usually lead by someone who is not at the 'coal face' so to speak and only cares about profits. Maximising your profits can lead to sloppy work and poor work. Every one has a right to earn a good days pay for a good days work but in the West I think everyone one now is going beyond what is a fair days work for a fair days pay and dishonesty and even corruption is rife in many industries.  I want no part of that ugly scene.

[BenPleysier]

I am not sure where maximising profits and corrupt industries come from. All I am saying is that I want to give my customers what they want, guided by my expertise. As I explained earlier, All they want is a good looking functional site that shows up on the first search page for a bargain price and preferably yesterday.

When I am about to hand the site over, the first thing my customers do is grab their phone and tune in to the site. Then they go to Google and I have to explain to them that it may take up to a month before they see a listing. As we are an Anglo-Saxon nation, I would suggest that things are not much different on your side of the globe.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

As we are an Anglo-Saxon nation, I would suggest that things are not much different on your side of the globe.

No, its not much different but I'm as honest with clients as I can be and usually have a good relationship. It's difficult granted because someone will always do it cheaper but I don't undersell my skills or service and charge what I feel my skills and knowledge are worth, without hopefully taking advantage.  If I don't get the job as a result of what I need to charge to make it worthwhile then the jobs not suited to me. I'm not really into 'bargain' pricing just to get the job but maybe it works for you.

[BenPleysier]

In total agreeance, I certainly do not undersell my skills or go to bargain pricing. My apologies for having given that impression.

[pziecina]

Ben wrote

All they want is a good looking functional site that shows up on the first search page for a bargain price and preferably yesterday.

I included a question i think about this earlier, as the only person that has not said to me at some point, (when i mention download file(s) size), that download time is not important anymore, as everyone has hi speed connections, is i think Nancy.

Sorry Os, but that includes yourself.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Ben wrote

All they want is a good looking functional site that shows up on the first search page for a bargain price and preferably yesterday.

I included a question i think about this earlier, as the only person that has not said to me at some point, (when i mention download file(s) size), that download time is not important anymore, as everyone has hi speed connections, is i think Nancy.

I've lost the plot of the thread now as I don't know where download times in this particular conversation comes into play?

Addressing that issue though - as far as download times are concernced it's not an issue in terms of landline connections. Yes, it is an issue on mobile and I have since at least tried to serve smaller images at mobile sizes in one way or another but no-one has addressed the issue of how a client is suppose to serve up 3 different images (cropped for maximum impact) to different devices if they are capable of doing so via a CMS. My response was - it aint going to happen any time soon so mobile providers need to wise up and get their download speeds up and introduce a monthly flat rate price, instead of trying to rip customers off to maximise their profits - oh what was I saying about the WESTS attitude - most companies are money grabbing theives.

So we are left with choices -  do we serve up a rather lame looking website at smartphone/tablet size for a faster download speed/experience and hope that those who view a wesbite using a smartphone/tablet via a landline accept a vsiually boring experience whilst competitors sites, who neglect to optimise their images at mobile size look wonderful. You pays your money you takes your choice, very grey area with no obvious right or wrong.

I'm still not convinced myself that anyone does any serious research or business on a smart-phone other than to send naked images of themselves to social media sites. Most people use a tablet in an environment which will have a free landline wi-fi connection, a cafe, hotel, restaurant, clients premises etc

[pziecina]

The download speed came into it when i asked about the clients being only interested in how the site looked, and if it functioned correctly, maybe i forgot to mention the download time though, now i think about it (we need an emoji for embarrassed).

As for serving up different images optimized for various sizes, (srcset, picture, image-set) i do know someone is working on that as i have been asked for my thoughts on it, (not Adobe) but i don't know if or when it will be made public, as many such things are never actually released.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

The download speed came into it when i asked about the clients being only interested in how the site looked, and if it functioned correctly, maybe i forgot to mention the download time though, now i think about it (we need an emoji for embarrassed).

Oh well never mind we've covered a lot. In all honestly I'd rather be sitting in the garden with an ice lolly

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

I'm still not convinced myself that anyone does any serious research or business on a smart-phone other than to send naked images of themselves to social media sites. Most people use a tablet in an environment which will have a free landline wi-fi connection, a cafe, hotel, restaurant, clients premises etc

That's actually correct, durring the last xmas period, smartphone shopping was almost all done using an app. but 50% of all shopping was done using a tablet connected via wi-fi.

That's for the u/k though, don't know about other countries.

[BenPleysier]

I do exactly that, in this case I upload 2 different sizes, this could easily be more.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

I do exactly that, in this case I upload 2 different sizes, this could easily be more.

Its not a problem actually coding a solution to do it, the problem comes when a client is expected to crop 120 x 3 (360 images) and you won't let the database update until it gets the correct number/size of images.

If a client is updating images on a daily basis that may not be an effective use of their time depending of course how many images they are uploading. A handful I guess its acceptable but anything more is going to pose a problem which is why ideally they only want to upload one image but that can never happen ever as nothing but a human can determine which area of the image to crop for mobile sizes.

You could of course make 2 extra images from the original upload automatically but this just reduces the image in proportion - height and width. That doesnt necessarily transfer well for wide images as the depth then looks silly on mobile devices.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Thank you for replying Ben,

Extension when i read the code produced by them are often much better than any framework code i read. To me providing the person using them knows how the code works, and more importantly could code what they are doing by hand, i did not see any problems, (depending on if too much extra code is produced).

Same here but I don't believe it because why would you invest time in understanding how something works if it just does by clicking a switch, it's just taken for granted and nothing is learnt as a result, which makes the developer poorer in knowledge as a result. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but they are few and far between.

When I used the DW server behaviours extension I couldnt care less about what was happeing under the bonnet so long as what was on top did what it was supposed to do. I suffered for years as a concequence of being 'locked' into an extension and had no idea what was possible until I broke free, thanks mainly to sensible developers who were telling me to move on. Had the server behaviours been updated I may well still be using them and none the wiser.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

Take pride in our hand coded master piece and boost our ego?

It's not about boosting anyones ego, at least not here. I don't care what people think of me to be honest I only care about providing services which are professional and bespoke, tailored to a clients needs, not some templated off-the-peg design or solution. If that's what you consider as having an ego then yes I have an ego.

[osgood_]

It doesnt change anything the mechanic who can repair, troubleshoot and fit the parts is more skilled than a mechanic that just bolts the parts  together and keeps their fingers crossed it all works after following an ABC guide written by someone else.

As far as Wordpress goes now youre opening up a whole new can of worms. I cant think of anything else which produces more bloated code and idiotic code structure than that piece of garbage. Its popular because once again its open source. Many of the plugins, extensions are also free and badly written. They may not be kept up to date by the extension writers, many of which come and go, because there is no incentive to so. If you ever update to a newer version of Wordpress possibilities exist that the extension wont work. The backend UI is so overly complex it will make most clients faint. Not to mention the security issues.

Grow some balls, invest some time and learn at least the essentials if you intend to make web development your career.