OT: Websites from Fiverr.com

[Nancy OShea]

Paying People To Create $5 Websites On Fiverr - YouTube

I Paid $100 For a Website on Fiverr | LOOK AT WHAT I GOT - YouTube

[BenPleysier]

An indication of what we are up against.

[B i r n o u]

and without wanting to be a party breeze.... :), a Basic model, at $100 for 4 pages, and although it is in the market prices is a little expensive...

the price of the templates has dropped and the unlimited subscription has become derisory... just replace the images and text with its content... put online for free and it's youps....half an hour... an hour at the most... and that's it.

I know a few teams that do this for a little less money

[Nancy OShea]

BenPleysier  wrote

An indication of what we are up against.

I'm not in competition with those web designers.   I just thought the experiments yielded some interesting results  like the fact that none of the contact forms worked .    For $5 I don't expect much.  But for $100, I expect more than what a $39 template can provide.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

Well exactly, as I said somewhere else in this thread, nothing in those examples would suggest to me a serious recipient of such a service would be satisfied with the outcome, so I don't really understand the concept.

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

[Nancy OShea]

osgood_  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea   wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

I don't really understand the concept.

The $5  bait is to get people's interest.  The concept is to up-sell everyone who takes the bait.

In some ways it's similar to the local market that advertises 3 dozen eggs for $1 to get customers in the door to hopefully buy other items.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

osgood_   wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea    wrote

For $5 I don't expect much.

I don't really understand the concept.

The $5  bait is to get people's interest.  The concept is to up-sell everyone who takes the bait.

In some ways it's similar to the local market that advertises 3 dozen eggs for $1 to get customers in the door to hopefully buy other items.

At $5 the click bait is misleading, well here in the UK it is. You would have to do a lot of up-selling to get any decent return. Someone who goes to the website with the impression that they can get something for $5 is hardly likley to go much beyond that threshold.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

Isn't that how the general public percieve most things to do with the web.

People can create a facebook page, upload text and graphics, tell stories, convert word files to ebooks. All without the requirement of web designers, photographers, writers or publishers, even Adobe is on the bandwagon, with products like elements, porfolio, spark and upto last year Muse.

MS Word took simple flyers out of the requirement for graphic designers years ago, digital camaras and now mobile devices with built in cameras, make professional photographers almost redundant for most requirements, cheap laser color printers make screen printers redundant for most general public requirement.

The list could go on and on. Nothing we do stands still, but every profession and what they produce still exists though. Those who create that something that is above the 'run of the mill' will always find a market.

There is no magic bullet to fix the decline in respect for web design/development, but those who create sites just for the local businesses, that do nothing more than say who, what, where they are, are in an ever declining market. For those new in the profession, they are joining in a time of change, and must up their game, (even those in the profession should stop looking for 'quick fixes' and start reassessing what they do).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

However it just denigrades the concept that a web-developer has or needs any skills beyond waking up in the morning, which even in the UK comes across load and clear. Not so long ago when I mentioned to my dentist I produced websites I was met with the abrupt reply 'oh right, anyone can do that these days'. Already, before any skill levels have been discussed its been decided in their mind its a worthless profession.

Isn't that how the general public percieve most things to do with the web.

People can create a facebook page, upload text and graphics, tell stories, convert word files to ebooks. All without the requirement of web designers, photographers, writers or publishers, even Adobe is on the bandwagon, with products like elements, porfolio, spark and upto last year Muse.

MS Word took simple flyers out of the requirement for graphic designers years ago, digital camaras and now mobile devices with built in cameras, make professional photographers almost redundant for most requirements, cheap laser color printers make screen printers redundant for most general public requirement.

The list could go on and on. Nothing we do stands still, but every profession and what they produce still exists though. Those who create that something that is above the 'run of the mill' will always find a market.

There is no magic bullet to fix the decline in respect for web design/development, but those who create sites just for the local businesses, that do nothing more than say who, what, where they are, are in an ever declining market. For those new in the profession, they are joining in a time of change, and must up their game, (even those in the profession should stop looking for 'quick fixes' and start reassessing what they do).

Yes of course you are correct. I saw the same happen in DTP and as I've already said its just not isolated to the web-development profession. Digital cameras put pay to a lot of photographers careers, certainly those ones that focused on quick turn-around PR shots. Not at the top of their game but still much better than your average 'street' photographer armed with a cheap digital camera can produce. So in effect what is happening we are mosty replacing 'acceptable/professional' quality , which enriches everyones lives, with poorer and poored amatuer quality.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

So in effect what is happening we are mosty replacing 'acceptable/professional' quality , which enriches everyones lives, with poorer and poored amatuer quality.

Yes and no.

What is happening is that the web site requirements has changed, but many do not see what is happening.

Years ago, companies would use an Access Db, (or even a spread sheet) to keep track of everything, now more are using a Web site/app to connect all their offices, outlets, control stock and most things that are the day to day requirements of running a buisness, but how many build sites/apps for small buisnesses that connect different locations together.

It is also no longer acceptable, (or legal) to sell a website, and make claims to the client that cannot be achived for having a website. Most $5 - $500, (or even in some cases $ thousands) websites are not really required and the old, "you will get more customers/clients" claim that many designers/developers previously made, have been found to be false by too many small buisnesses.

Even the design and feel of many websites has not changed from the early '00's, and from my discussion regarding change, it is obvious that most do not think it should. Even Birnous discussion a few weeks ago regarding which template to use, came down to a decission made for OS's that had been discontinued years ago. Someone looking for a website will not get much for $100, but the question is, 'would they get much more for $1000'?.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Years ago, companies would use an Access Db, (or even a spread sheet) to keep track of everything, now more are using a Web site/app to connect all their offices, outlets, control stock and most things that are the day to day requirements of running a buisness, but how many build sites/apps for small buisnesses that connect different locations together.

Large organisation mostly business to business yes but not smaller ones. The majority of companies out there are very small, still with a limited budget when it comes to producing a website. The sensible ones spend a few thousand to have a professional presence, most being well under 10k. I don't think a lot of them think just by having a website their turnover is going to go up by 4 fold, it's more of a PR approach.

The less educated ones are turning to cheaper options whereas in the past that wasnt available and they had to spend a few thounsand or have nothing. Like I said we are just getting poorer and poorer results on account of 'do-it-yourself' - a lot of profesionals have to compete on price (which they can't) or die, that can't be healthy.............lots of very talented individuals being forced out by price.

pziecina  wrote

Even the design and feel of many websites has not changed from the early '00's, and from my discussion regarding change, it is obvious that most do not think it should. Even Birnous discussion a few weeks ago regarding which template to use, came down to a decission made for OS's that had been discontinued years ago. Someone looking for a website will not get much for $100, but the question is, 'would they get much more for $1000'?.

I'm not sure there is room for change at the moment to be honest in terms of layout/presentation. I think its peaked. I've worked in layout for over 40 years and you can pick up a good magazine produced 20 years ago and the layout is more or less exactly the same as what is being produced in magazines produced today. What does change are inks, paper, coatings, typefaces etc. The equivalent for the web, would maybe the introduction of a bit of animation, typefaces are now more abundant .

I think any reasonably produced small website, which has a CMS, shouldnt be starting from under 2k + BUT then again you could produce one for less using an automated system but you'd probably be doing the client a dis-service in some way, so everyone loses out eventually. Developer does it for virtually nothing and needs to keep filling their boots to survive, client gets something which is probably not easily extendable.

Its not feasable, well certainly not in the UK to work on £500 websites. You would need to be cranking out well over 4 a month to make a decent living and I don't know anyone that can keep up that pace year on year.

[pziecina]

O/K, lets start with a small buisness with services/outlets in 3 different locations. Connecting them together only requires 3 MS Access licences, and a sql server on the web server. So the question I would ask web developers is, "how much do they know about building forms using MS Access"?, and making the MS Access code compatible with an sql server, (e.g. MySQL) on a web host server. A website would then have an acurate in/out of stock, and make it easier for the owner to see accurately what is happening, in real time across premises and on the web, (could even connect to Adobes 'Experiance' offerings).

The next item is not layout, (should be using flexbox at least) but presentation.

With the upcoming update to MS Edge, css shapes becomes a very real possibility, then comes the font-feature-settings, kerning, font fallbacks, (font stacks have become a thing of the past, but should they be?). Presentation of text on the web is one item that does not have enough attention by web designers/developers, but given that 90% of web usage is reading, (if one ignores selfies, and fun videos) making typography a selling point is a possibility, (the quick and easy site builders, cannot spent the time learning and doing).

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

O/K, lets start with a small buisness with services/outlets in 3 different locations. Connecting them together only requires 3 MS Access licences, and a sql server on the web server. So the question I would ask web developers is, "how much do they know about building forms using MS Access"?, and making the MS Access code compatible with an sql server, (e.g. MySQL) on a web host server. A website would then have an acurate in/out of stock, and make it easier for the owner to see accurately what is happening, in real time across premises and on the web, (could even connect to Adobes 'Experiance' offerings).

I don't know, most of the companies I've produced websites for over the years only have the one location, apart from one I can think of. Those with 2 or 3 locations probably wouldn't even consider using my services. I dont think you can just go out and learn everything on a whim and hope that sometime soon a job requiring such workflows is going to drop into your lap. A lot of back-end developer don't know about front-end development, which surprises me, but then again why should it - they are probably specialists, not full-stack' developers.....so maybe rather than following the full-stack route, the future generation of developers should set out to specialise in something, rather than trying to blanket cover everything. I see that as the only way to offer a service which might command more respect and better renummeration.

pziecina  wrote

The next item is not layout, (should be using flexbox at least) but presentation.

With the upcoming update to MS Edge, css shapes becomes a very real possibility, then comes the font-feature-settings, kerning, font fallbacks, (font stacks have become a thing of the past, but should they be?). Presentation of text on the web is one item that does not have enough attention by web designers/developers, but given that 90% of web usage is reading, (if one ignores selfies, and fun videos) making typography a selling point is a possibility, (the quick and easy site builders, cannot spent the time learning and doing).

Maybe grid will change things up a bit. Its capable of more complex layouts but its not main-stream used yet but I see that happening in the next couple of years. Otherwise I don't really see any change on the immediate horizon.

[pziecina]

I'm just throwing ideas out.

One can build all types of web sites/apps, but without a speciality, (user/product type) I doubt if the small site creator will be in buisness in 5 years or so, or at least not without 'cookie cutter' template/framework sites being the norm and only way to survive, (even then it will be a race to the bottom).

The problem with layouts and presentation, is no longer the restrictions of browsers, but the limited knowledge of both designers and developers. How many who call themselves front end web designers have even taken a basic graphic design course, or how many back end developers have any knowledge of what is happening in their chosen language, (especially security) beyond what they have read in a book or watched on a video.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

How many who call themselves front end web designers have even taken a basic graphic design course

We'll that just compounds the issues which have been stacking up over the years.........no real knowledge of coding, how it all works and no layout skills.....hummmm.

[BenPleysier]

Has this guy got the right attitude?

I ditched frameworks 5 years ago and started writing everything from scratch. My OS isn't as secure as it could be and the TCP stack isn't fast but the HTTP parser took fewer months than I'd expected.

5 years later, I'm nearly finished with the login page and my client is furious. Hire me?

Or should he have used this workflow?

Creating a Complete Login System with DMXzone Security provider - YouTube

The point I am trying to make: no matter what the environment, large or small, the customer (boss) wants a product to their satisfaction (quality).

[osgood_]

The guy in question, whoever that is, just comes across as code challenged. Seriously if developers were to actually do what they are supposed to be doing and not jumping straight into frameworks they would discover how simple much of this stuff actually is plus have a much better understanding of the process.

As for the link you provided, which uses a niche workflow, it may suit the developer more than the unsuspecting  client.  Personally l view that as immorale and simply couldnt use that myself but when desperate, desperate measures are needed, mostly l would assume by the retired developer who can no longer keep pace or an amatuer whose job somehow requires them to dabble in managing a website.

After 18 months l see no evidence that  the product you refer to is being taken seriously beyond the amatuer, retired level. You only need to watch a few of the live Webinars to see even those who have been using it from the start and have little coding knowledge  struggle when it all goes wrong, as it frequently does, hilarious.

[BenPleysier]

A few cheap shots to which I am getting accustomed coming from you. Words that are most denigrating because I use a product that does not meet your approval (read: have never used) include immoral, retired developer, amateur. If you had used doddery as a description, I would have agreed, but that would not be fair to the other 5K+ users of the program.

In the meantime, at 76 I have many happy customers keeping me occupied.

Maybe I sense a bit of envy in your narrative . Sorry about that.

PS: Note the separate paragraphs to make it easier for you to reply.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

A few cheap shots to which I am getting accustomed coming from you. Words that are most denigrating because I use a product that does not meet your approval (read: have never used) include immoral, retired developer, amateur. If you had used doddery as a description, I would have agreed, but that would not be fair to the other 5K+ users of the program.

I can't help it if you view the truth as cheap shots. It doesnt meet my approval for very good reasons, which l document and are undeniable to anyone who would consider themselves serious about web development, especially as a career.

BenPleysier  wrote

In the meantime, at 76 I have many happy customers keeping me occupied.

Maybe I sense a bit of envy in your narrative . Sorry about that.

Unfortunately a blight in the industry is withholding information from the client about how a website was built. Maybe they will only find that out in time. Personally ld rather leave behind  a clean legacy rather than one of being tarnished as a result of poor practices.

No reason to be envious, just now in a position where l can expose the truth, maybe others can benefit. Id like to think so.

[BenPleysier]

osgood_  wrote

I can't help it if you view the truth as cheap shots. It doesnt meet my approval for very good reasons, which l document and are undeniable to anyone who would consider themselves serious about web development, especially as a career.

Please back the (so-called) truth up with facts, not just emotional arguments.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

Please back the (so-called) truth up with facts, not just emotional arguments.

Fact, ap connect is not regarded in the industry as a main stream workflow so any one deploying it is in a very limited group.

Fact, its difficult, almost impossible, to find help outside of the products own forum should things go wrong or if questions need to be asked.

Fact, virtually no professional web development company will be impreesed if you rock up at their door step asking for a job

Fact, its limited in what it can do beyond a certain point

Fact, you are decieving your client by providing an end product that would be difficult to maintain unless you had a knowledge of app connect, as stated in fact 1, an 'unrecognised' workflow within the industry.

Hows that for starters?

[BenPleysier]

You are a champion at changing the subject. This is what I read

Where are the facts regarding your so-called truth?

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

You are a champion at changing the subject. This is what I read

Where are the facts regarding your so-called truth?

Ben l know youre 76 and its way past your bedtime in Aus, but you're not a fool, l hope. I refer you to post 40 for the facts, in black and white.

[BenPleysier]

osgood_  wrote

Ben l know youre 76 and its way past your bedtime in Aus, but you're not a fool, l hope. I refer you to post 40 for the facts, in black and white.

Is it me going round the bend? Here I am thinking that post 40 was written by you. How stupid of me .

Time to watch the qualifying at Silverstone.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Ben l know youre 76 and its way past your bedtime in Aus, but you're not a fool, l hope. I refer you to post 40 for the facts, in black and white.

Is it me going round the bend? Here I am thinking that post 40 was written by you. How stupid of me .

Time to watch the qualifying at Silverstone.

Oh well l presented you with some facts that you requested but as usual youre in a state of denial when faced with something that you point blank refuse to come to terms with.

In your situation its neither here nor there but someone whos starting out, lacks basic knowledge,  may find useful to make a subjective decision.