OT: Websites from Fiverr.com

[Nancy OShea]

Paying People To Create $5 Websites On Fiverr - YouTube

I Paid $100 For a Website on Fiverr | LOOK AT WHAT I GOT - YouTube

[pziecina]

Actually we are back to what I argued about when CS5 came out.

The real money in web development goes to those who have something more than what Dw, frameworks or plug-ins offers, or is capable of. Web designers are in short supply, because many of those who call themselves web designers, do not know what they are doing. It is not a case of what they have to learn or standards being so high, but a case of many thinking that what they did last year, is good enough for next year also, (then we also have the problem of knowing code, specs, and not having basic graphic design skills).

I know you don't get involved in pre-releases, or discussions about what Dw lacks Os, (I don't for pre-releases anymore, complete and utter waste of time). But too many of those who do, do not build web sites/apps for a living, (and never have) or are like Ben, (no offence intended here Ben) and trying to compete in an ever declining market, with wix, etc as part the competition.

I can say use typographical features, hi-end magazine type layouts, hi-quality images, etc etc. But unless those concerned know not just the 'what I am talking about' in html and css, but also the how of implementing those page enhancements, I am wasting my time. Such feature though if thought of by Dw users, are often wanted as point and click solutions, which they cannot be.

It's like srcset, comming up with a workflow for that alone, is an impossibiliy as everyone has different requirements, but as a selling point over wix etc, maybe the hassle would be worth the time?

[pziecina]

Hi Ben,

The 5,000 users is probably the same for Dw, (serious users, not for own site only users).

To put it in perspective though, VS Pro, (not VS Code) the paid for version, currently has over 3.5 million users who use it for web development.

[BenPleysier]

pziecina  wrote

Hi Ben,

The 5,000 users is probably the same for Dw, (serious users, not for own site only users).

To put it in perspective though, VS Pro, (not VS Code) the paid for version, currently has over 3.5 million users who use it for web development.

The perspective is DMXzone vs Microsoft, I used VS in the late 90's when I was creating programs in VB. Brings back memories.

Anyhow, no comparison, a product that has been on the market for over 20 years and also used outside of web development, to a product has has been on the market for a year or two specifically for web development.

[BenPleysier]

You don't give up just like a little child.

osgood_  wrote

BenPleysier   wrote

Please back the (so-called) truth up with facts, not just emotional arguments.

Fact, ap connect is not regarded in the industry as a main stream workflow so any one deploying it is in a very limited group.

Fact, its difficult, almost impossible, to find help outside of the products own forum should things go wrong or if questions need to be asked.

Fact, virtually no professional web development company will be impreesed if you rock up at their door step asking for a job

Fact, its limited in what it can do beyond a certain point

Fact, you are decieving your client by providing an end product that would be difficult to maintain unless you had a knowledge of app connect, as stated in fact 1, an 'unrecognised' workflow within the industry.

Hows that for starters?

The facts that I was looking for are referred to in my post #38.not your post #40.

Then you go on with irrelevant facts, namely

Fact, ap connect is not regarded in the industry as a main stream workflow so any one deploying it is in a very limited group.

No one ever said it was an industry standard. Fact is that 5K+ people using it presently are au fait with it, more people than can be found using your personalised code.

Fact, its difficult, almost impossible, to find help outside of the products own forum should things go wrong or if questions need to be asked.

It is neither difficult and certainly not impossible to find assistance assuming that something may go wrong which cannot be said for personalised code.

Fact, virtually no professional web development company will be impreesed if you rock up at their door step asking for a job

Another one of your fancies. What makes you say that I do not run a professional web development company.

Fact, its limited in what it can do beyond a certain point

Coming to that conclusion needs more info. I would love to know what you can do with your limited knowledge of PHP/JavaScript that cannot be done with Server Connect/App Connect.

Fact, you are decieving your client by providing an end product that would be difficult to maintain unless you had a knowledge of app connect, as stated in fact 1, an 'unrecognised' workflow within the industry.

Another of your derogatory remarks?

Go back to your beverige and keep dreaming. Silverstone is waiting

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

You don't give up just like a little child.

The facts that I was looking for are referred to in my post #38.not your post #40.

Its not my problem if you want to overlook facts put before you, instead dressing  them up as something more to your liking or just ignoring them aftet requesting them.

I have no idea what you are refering to, post 38 was mine not yours, but hey thats just a fact, why would you acknoweldge that.trivial matter.

BenPleysier  wrote

Then you go on with irrelevant facts, namely

Fact, ap connect is not regarded in the industry as a main stream workflow so any one deploying it is in a very limited group.

No one ever said it was an industry standard. Fact is that 5K+ people using it presently are au fait with it, more people than can be found using your personalised code

Complete rubbish. I think you mean 5k people have given it a trial or are signed up to the forum, many didnt pursue it beyond the trial period. If we are generous and say the conversion rate is 20% that implies roughly a 1000 people are using it worldwide.

My code is not personalised its plain old html, css, javascript, jquery, vue js - all industry standard which means far more developers would be familar with those workflows

BenPleysier  wrote

Fact, its difficult, almost impossible, to find help outside of the products own forum should things go wrong or if questions need to be asked.

It is neither difficult and certainly not impossible to find assistance assuming that something may go wrong which cannot be said for personalised code.

Another load of bull crap. Where else would you find help  other than the product  forum regarding the code Wappler outputs. Have you checked Codepen lately or Stack Overflow.?

I dont know what this personalised code is you keep refering to. Code is just code unless youre using some kind of niche code workflow then it becomes limited to where help can be sought. I thought that might be obvious.

BenPleysier  wrote

Fact, virtually no professional web development company will be impreesed if you rock up at their door step asking for a job

Another one of your fancies. What makes you say that I do not run a professional web development company

The proof would be if you could point to some job boards offering  full time web development vacancies that specifically required ap connect/Wappler. Good luck with that one

BenPleysier  wrote

Fact, its limited in what it can do beyond a certain point
Coming to that conclusion needs more info. I would love to know what you can do with your limited knowledge of PHP/JavaScript that cannot be done with Server Connect/App Connect

Its the small things that count in the end. Wasnt there an issue the other day when a user just wanted to click a button and have the number 1 appear in 3 input fields as the value. 12 hours later the OP still had no reply. Not exactly difficult to  do with a simple bit of javsscript in a couple of minutes. I dont know what the eventual outcome was as l didnt persure the thread after the lack of forum response and the OP assuming it couldnt be done in Wappler. There have been numerous instances of these kinds of small but important situations.

BenPleysier  wrote

Fact, you are decieving your client by providing an end product that would be difficult to maintain unless you had a knowledge of app connect, as stated in fact 1, an 'unrecognised' workflow within the industry.

Another of your derogatory remarks?

Go back to your beverige and keep dreaming. Silverstone is waiting

Its a sensible observation if youre at all in anyway concerned about whats best for the client, not a derogatory remark.

[BenPleysier]

Complete rubbish. I think you mean 5k people have given it a trial or are signed up to the forum, many didnt pursue it beyond the trial period. If we are generous and say the conversion rate is 20% that implies roughly a 1000 people are using it worldwide.

As an insider I happen to know the truth. I do not use emotional data.

My code is not personalised its plain old html, css, javascript, jquery, vue js - all industry standard which means far more developers would be familar with those workflows

Where can I find this industry standard that you are talking about?

Its the small things that count in the end. Wasnt there an issue the other day when a user just wanted to click a button and have the number 1 appear in 3 input fields as the value. 12 hours later the OP still had no reply. Not exactly difficult to  do with a simple bit of javsscript in a couple of minutes. I dont know what the eventual outcome was as l didnt persure the thread after the lack of forum response and the OP assuming it couldnt be done in Wappler. There have been numerous instances of these kinds of small but important situations.

This has nothing at all to do with coding and all to do with using Wappler. You are changing the subject for the umpteenth time to suit your so-called arguments.

To sum up:

• I am still awaiting an answer to my post #38
• I want to know where to find the industry standard.

In luie of above answers, this will be my last reply to this topic.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

Complete rubbish. I think you mean 5k people have given it a trial or are signed up to the forum, many didnt pursue it beyond the trial period. If we are generous and say the conversion rate is 20% that implies roughly a 1000 people are using it worldwide.

As an insider I happen to know the truth. I do not use emotional data.

I doubt even you would be privy to that kind of information. Wishful thinking on your part though.

BenPleysier  wrote

My code is not personalised its plain old html, css, javascript, jquery, vue js - all industry standard which means far more developers would be familar with those workflows

Where can I find this industry standard that you are talking about?

If you need to ask that question then your knowledge  about web-development is much worse than I initially feared.

BenPleysier  wrote

Its the small things that count in the end. Wasnt there an issue the other day when a user just wanted to click a button and have the number 1 appear in 3 input fields as the value. 12 hours later the OP still had no reply. Not exactly difficult to  do with a simple bit of javsscript in a couple of minutes. I dont know what the eventual outcome was as l didnt persure the thread after the lack of forum response and the OP assuming it couldnt be done in Wappler. There have been numerous instances of these kinds of small but important situations.

This has nothing at all to do with coding and all to do with using Wappler. You are changing the subject for the umpteenth time to suit your so-called arguments.

So if Wappler cant do it, it has nothing to do with Wappler, of course not. It's just showing its short-fall in certain situation, which are frequently encountered. You ask me where it was deficient or what it could'nt do that a coder could and I gave you an answer, how's that changing the subject?

BenPleysier  wrote

To sum up:

• I am still awaiting an answer to my post #38
• I want to know where to find the industry standard.

I'll look up your post 38 assuming you can count,  last time it was evident you could not get past 10.

As for the second part of your request, refer to the question you posted above.

'Where can I find this industry standard that you are talking about?'

Edited:

Refer to post 40 for the answer to your post 38.........think you'll find the answers.

[pziecina]

The problem is Ben, and we have been discussing this for years, is that designers want a 'click to do' way of building sites, and coders want a 'everything for coders' IDE.

Which brings us back to the problem of which is best, in the long term?

Dw no matter what anyone says or does, will always be a 'for no one' program. Simply because it is not for large commercial or enterprise site/app creation. Admittedly I am now using the W3Cs definition of a small site, (under $250 thousand, which I doubt anyone at Adobe or in the Dw team considers small).

If someone is competing in the small site creation using Dw, then I would think they are in the very bottom end of the W3Cs price definition, (under the $15,000.00 bracket). In that price bracket, inovation is not going to happen, and knowing exactly how the code works, becomes secondary.

Edit - for some unknown reason parts of my posts are being deleted when I click 'save reply'.

So here is the last sentence again -

In large sites, it is necessary to document how the code works, and what is happening, as one must ensure it can be complient with any laws. Using any point and click method this is not possible, unless one goes through the code and can understand what is happening. Must point and click code, is so convoluted, that trying to follow it then document the code, wastes more time than that saved by using it, (and often brings up problems that have to be fixed).

[BenPleysier]

I think you hit the nail on the head. There will always be the pure coder and yes, they will be in the $15,000 plus bracket. The competition in that bracket is not a fraction of the competition at the lower end. And while my customers are opting for cheap websites made by WP and Wix, I need arsenal that will help me keep my prices down.

[osgood_]

What is innovation?

I would say the majority of alll websites viewable are under $15000,00. No disrespect but possibly  you may have been working at the minority end of the market where teams of developers are involved and the client has bucket loads of money to shift.

Just because you produce websites for 4k, 5k or 6k doesnt mean youre not professiinal, its just as important to know the process and take as much pride in what you produce as those who are elite, working at the top end of the scale.

The only developers l would consider unprofessional are those with short term views. Its highly unlikely that if you focus on niche automated worflows that its going to be of any benefit to you if for any reason you needed to find a position in the industry............so how could you view that category as having  a professional outlook. Its either damn right ignorant, stupid or probably someone with the attitude of moving from one profession to another once their inadequacies have been exposed.

[pziecina]

O/K, lets take this in perspective.

If you are a normal visitor to a site such as Amazon, what you see is probably less than 1% of the entire sites functionality. Those working with the site behind what the visitor sees and uses are using the sites application parts, to do everything from processing the order, to the financial departments doing what financial depts do, (paying taxes, or not ).

Everyone who thinks that those employed in such sites/apps creation, maintanence and security, are in the minority, are mistaken. Large commercial and enterprise sites/apps, employ over 60% of those in the web development profession. What does change, is the web designer profession, in which the majority are employed building small sites/apps.

[osgood_]

Yes but how many have any skill other than updating information via a cms, that l would presume account for the majority of the 60%.  Take the bbc for example, that must employee 100s of admins working on the website just inputting information.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Yes but how many have any skill other than updating information via a cms, that l would presume account for the majority of the 60%.  Take the bbc for example, that must employee 100s of admins working on the website just inputting information.

I'm talking about those actively employed in coding, not those updating a cms, which is admin staff.

As for the BBC, have you ever thought of how the process works for getting a reporters info into a broadcast, checked for legal requirements, edited, approved for broadcast, journalist and camera crew to required location with flights and accommodation, (not forgeting pay) and eveything else including transcripts, language translators, web site, blog, etc updates.

You are thinking in what your clients requierments are, large companies and organisations, (especially those which are world wide) have very different requierments, all of which must be tied together.

[osgood_]

Hey dont lecture me on how a large company operates, l work for one of the largest animal welfare companies on the planet, who have offices in numerous counties. Yes, its a long drawn out process. l usually have to wait weeks, if not months,  for a project to pass through several department before it arrives back on my desk. Not sure how this is related to what we are discussing though.

[pziecina]

It is related in that we are also discussing ways to compete with the cheap web site offerings. Which in my opinion can only be done with frameworks and point and click.

Even then it is not a long term stratergy for a living, simply because those competing in such a market are competing against others looking for clients in that market, (my definition of race to the bottom = there will always be someone who will start doing it cheaper) so it becomes a never ending spiral of finding ways of cutting cost in order to do it cheaper.

What I think though, is that instead of 'race to the botton' start specialising in what type of clients you have. Build modules, that can add to a web sites/apps functions, and keep ahead of what is possible and happening.

The days of building small web sites as a living are becomming more and more limited, because no matter what anyone in that lower end of the scale does, soon rather than later, wix and other such offerings will offer that as well.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

It is related in that we are also discussing ways to compete with the cheap web site offerings. Which in my opinion can only be done with frameworks and point and click.

Even then it is not a long term stratergy for a living, simply because those competing in such a market are competing against others looking for clients in that market, (my definition of race to the bottom = there will always be someone who will start doing it cheaper) so it becomes a never ending spiral of finding ways of cutting cost in order to do it cheaper.

So really we are just coming back to what lve said all along. Not only are these developers strangling what was considered once as a highly skilled professional, forcing them out of the running on price, not quality,  but they are strangling each other,. Exactly my point. In the end no one apart from the makers of such product wins financially.

pziecina  wrote

What I think though, is that instead of 'race to the botton' start specialising in what type of clients you have. Build modules, that can add to a web sites/apps functions, and keep ahead of what is possible and happening.

The days of building small web sites as a living are becomming more and more limited, because no matter what anyone in that lower end of the scale does, soon rather than later, wix and other such offerings will offer that as well.

I  cant disagree with that. Its not really going to be a problem for me as lve already decided to become more selective in what l do in the future but lll still champion those who have some pride in what they do rather than pros-titute themselves just to compete.

[B i r n o u]

Thank you Nancy for this kind of link....  I find them refreshing and contextualizing of reality...

[osgood_]

This has been covered a lot recently on youtube:

Paying People To Create $5 Websites On Fiverr - YouTube

Edited:

Opps....... only clicked on your last link. Sorry for re-posting the link. The first link I found hilarious. We are doomed!

[pziecina]

I wonder how much knowledge both the clients and those building the sites for them really have.

Another example of why the lower end of the profession is failing.

Edit - Also do not forget that there is no indication of where in the world, the people offering to build sites for $5 or $100 are based. There are many countries in which even $5 is a good days pay, and $100 is very good money. Adobe did not move development to India for any other reason, except it was cheaper.

It's a world market now, even for companies like Adobe.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

I wonder how much knowledge both the clients and those building the sites for them really have.

Another example of why the lower end of the profession is failing.

Edit - Also do not forget that there is no indication of where in the world, the people offering to build sites for $5 or $100 are based. There are many countries in which even $5 is a good days pay, and $100 is very good money. Adobe did not move development to India for any other reason, except it was cheaper.

It's a world market now, even for companies like Adobe.

I wouldn't want to be starting out as web-developer now as it has such a low status attached to it. Only a few can command what their skill level is really worth these days. It was once an admirable and somewhat skilful profession at any level but accessibility to all and a choice from a world wide market has removed the respect.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

I wouldn't want to be starting out as web-developer now as it has such a low status attached to it. Only a few can command what their skill level is really worth these days. It was once an admirable and somewhat skilful profession at any level but accessibility to all and a choice from a world wide market has removed the respect.

Why would anyone pay more than they have to for a quick and easy website?

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development, and not for those building sites at the lower end of requirements. Static sites or even those using wordpress for cms, are no longer going to provide a good living as long as the typical quality of the site being built, (that includes the code) can be built by anyone in a day.

The problem is that Dw mainly caters for those at the lower end, and offers no means of competing any higher in the development requirements, than those building the five dollar sites.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Why would anyone pay more than they have to for a quick and easy website?

There's quick and easy and quick and easy. I don't see that the examples from fiverr could possibly fulfil anyones expectations.

pziecina  wrote

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development

There is but they are highly skilled. The abundance of positions, work, which were being filled by the mere-mortal web-developer have all but dispappeared.

pziecina  wrote

The problem is that Dw mainly caters for those at the lower end, and offers no means of competing any higher in the development requirements, than those building the five dollar sites.

I don't have an issue with any editor apart from most lack something BUT if you want to code using the latest techniques its possible in any editor. I just feel DW is not worth the cost, given its no better and certainly a lot worse than free editors. If DW were like £25 a year I may be tempted to subscribe. It has a decent snippet panel, folder management facilities but I think that should be a secondary consideration to providing a competive coding environemnt, which it doesn't. Adobe have lost sight of what competitors charge and still think they are providing something unique which warrants the cost but in this case, in my opinion, it doesnt.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

pziecina   wrote

There is still plenty of respect for developers, but only at the higher end of design/development

There is but they are highly skilled. The abundance of positions, work, which were being filled by the mere-mortal web-developer have all but dispappeared.

That is worth a discussion all of its own.

The year before I retired completely, we advertised for a web developer and I am told the position is still open.

We did not want much in our opinion, just someone over 30 years old, ex-military, and with a passion for creative thinking in html, css and js. The applicant was not even required to have a proven track record in web development, but must simply be able to show us what they had created themselves to prove compitance and ability, (it was for someone looking for a second career).

The starting salary was £36,500.00, so not exactly low paid, but on an equivalent to what they would have been paid in aero engineering in the military.

That is why I know that the number of web designers/developers in the UK/EU, who can work on enterprise sites/apps, is in short supply, and the standard for such are not being met by most.

(Remember my post about the shortage a few months ago?).

The work is there, but not the web designers/developers.

[osgood_]

If there is a shortage of web developers then that has got to be partially down to the decimation of the industry in general bought about by workflows which are open to all and require less understanding and skill.

Web development which was once high on the agenda as a possible career to follow has collapsed and is a casualty as a result, much like a lot of other industries which intoduced automated processes, where now fewer work and even less consider as a serious career option.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Web development which was once high on the agenda as a possible career to follow has collapsed and is a casualty as a result, much like a lot of other industries which intoduced automated processes, where now fewer work and even less consider as a serious career option.

If all someone does is aim for factory work, all they will get is factory work.