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Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 6, 2021
Question

OT: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

  • December 6, 2021
  • 7 replies
  • 2766 views

At the risk of "soapboxing," let me just say that I'm thoroughly astounded by how many people are still attempting to use 10+ year old web authoring software in 2021.  Don't they know that the web is constantly & swiftly changing to help make the web a better place for everyone? 

 

Is it plain recklessness, blind ignorance, poverty or an unwillingness to accept change?  I don't know and frankly I don't care. There is no excuse for using obsolete web software.  There are plenty of viable alternatives available. 

 

Long ago, I stopped worrying about users of obsolete web browsers.  If someone can't upgrade to a modern web browser, that's their cross to bear; not mine.

 

Likewise, I feel the clock has run out on users of legacy Macromedia and Creative Suite products.  It's time to upgrade or step aside and let someone else with more web experience handle these projects now. 

 

My new mission is to stop coddling legacy product users.  Henceforth, I will do my utmost to get them "off the crack pipe" and onto more sensible solutions.  I don't expect to be thanked or congratulated.  Nor do I plan to win any popularity contests.  I'm doing this because the web is rife with bad players and it's the right thing to do.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

This topic has been closed for replies.

7 replies

Liam Dilley
Inspiring
December 7, 2021

Your right on all points Nancy but I know the reasons...

 

Legacy browsers:

Not so much of an issue these days and going forward, especially with mostly mobile use there as well but if your building online applications or internal sollutions for business you still have to consider the businesses computer setup and even now, many big companies are 2-3 windows versions behind and network set to lock out installing software and running IE11 or even 10 and some cases 9 as the only browser.

 

The bigger problem is gathering data, not just to sell or use for profile in a "facebook" way but just to have a persona for a website or application to know who is doing what and what is working with your site or not to change and update and improve. Most browsers are increasingly preventing you getting the information you need to do digital marketing and just improving the website/application.

 

In terms of develoeprs not switching software:

 

In general I get it. You have a workflow and you can be busy so learning new software and workflows and switching to it could take people time or just the setup, the change, the tools you may need to change too as well as a result can spiral a little but so it can be overwellming for some - so they dont, and others they just do not think they can afford the time too.

There is a large chunk though, especially for me in the Adobe space in terms of coding and web are stuck in the past using software Adobe are continuing and while adding modern features are still aimed at old concepts and old methods.

 

Seeing some of the Iframe chat earlier in the year and some of the CSS answers to some questions in the Dreamweaver forum was quite "eeek" for me for example.

 

But change can be good but the transition can be challinging for many.

 

It is 100% annoying for the transition for me than anything else but I am always looking at the optimum workflow in all things. Same with hardware, best mouse that will tick the boxes, I am looking at change with mechanical keyboards, which switches will suit my coding workflow the best and so on. I always want to be optimal.

 

Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021
quote...many big companies are 2-3 windows versions behind and network set to lock out installing software and running IE11 or even 10 and some cases 9 as the only browser.
 
By @Liam Dilley

============

To your point Liam, Enterprise users have a lot more latittude.  Their IT dept can package legacy versions for them if that what's needed.   I rarely see Enterprise users here, though.

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
Liam Dilley
Inspiring
December 9, 2021

They can actually be the worst. 

Bigger companies can fall into the trap of having a process so out dated that it is a nightmare to change even if new team leads / devs want too.

You have to keep up with things, outlay time to look for improvements in the systems and workflows. You got to make your own calls on how a company moves on. When to use CSS Grid for example knowing the compatability or simple fact that its still not set its feet firmly down. A good example was all the short falls and the udpates with sub grids introduced.

BenPleysier
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

OT: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

 

Could it be that these are the current users of Dreamweaver? I come across many ex-Dreamers on the other forum.

Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!
Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

 

quote

Could it be that these are the current users of Dreamweaver?


By @BenPleysier

=======

Could be.  And if that's the case, I will implore them to find other solutions they can work with.  If not newer Dreamweaver CC, then something else. 

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
Jon Fritz
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

Q: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

A: Because it still works.

Aside from a couple small items that have been truly deprecated, removed and no longer function in browsers, like the <blink> tag or Flash video, the old ways still (while ugly, old, and outdated) work. Sites still render as expected using deprecated methods and "obsolete use css instead" atttributes.

As long as the old code is still rendered as expected by browsers, people are still going to keep using it.

 

It really is as simple as that.

If browsers would drop all the backward compatibility they have built in, people would be forced to move away from the old ways. If there were massive rendering issues with old doctypes and obsolete attributes, or giant intrusive "this website is coded with obsolete garbage" style messages popping up on every visit, the willingness to use archaicware would dissolve.

But there's not. 

Without that, people are still going to say "good enough" and keep plugging along with what they have, especially the hobbiests and single-site editors.

It's human nature, with boatloads of examples across all aspects of life.

pziecina
Legend
December 7, 2021

Hi Jon,

 

Lets be honest about browsers, if they did stop rendering old or invalid code, then at least half the web sites on the web would stop working. Which would not necessarily be a bad thing, as at least that many are probably 'zombie' sites anyway, that have no real visitors.

 

There was a 'question' asked about 5 years, regarding browsers and old html/css/javascript, and if they should stop supporting the use of, (the question was asked by the W3C), but it was decided that the whole point of the web, was that anything ever published, (and still available) should always be viewable, providing it did not use plug-ins or propriety code.

 

One of the questions I would like answered is, "did Nancy include Dw CC, in her obsolete authoring software list?". As for me it should be, due to the number of css properties not supported, (and dont get me started on html and javascript).

Jon Fritz
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

"There was a 'question' asked about 5 years, regarding browsers and old html/css/javascript, and if they should stop supporting the use of, (the question was asked by the W3C), but it was decided that the whole point of the web, was that anything ever published, (and still available) should always be viewable, providing it did not use plug-ins or propriety code."

Then the use of outdated methods will continue.


There's no way out of it, if browsers are going to allow it.

 

The Bandaid needs to be ripped off, but it sounds like nobody is willing to do it.

BenPleysier
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

Developers have long since dropped Dreamweaver and even designers are being weaned away from Dreamweaver.

 

 

Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!
Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

As so often happens, the left leg & right leg are tap dancing to different songs. 😕😕

 

Adobe released their ExtendScript plugin for VS Code and totally ignored Brackets and Dreamweaver.

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Adobe.extendscript-debug

 

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
pziecina
Legend
December 7, 2021

All I could think when I read this post was, 'well finally'.

 

I agree with Os, but I have to say that Dw has been 'outdated' for years. In many ways Dw CS6 is still better than any CC version, especially if one knows how to write extensions that can update code hints, (etc). That said adobe never wanted Dw, (and many others associated with Dw also).

 

I would be surprised if Dw gets more than just maintanance updates in the future, as its user base is the casual developer, and no serious developer, (who knows what they are doing) will pay for a CC subscription, (another possible reason for not using Dw), after all fireworks and Ps CS6 offer as much as any CC version when it comes to the web. So why pay for a CC subscription?

 

Assigning blame is pointless though, as the web has moved on faster than most people thought it would since mobile devices became available, and even though 'small and personal' web sites are still maintained and developed, they are no longer the real focus of internet development, (notice I said internet, and not web). Earning a living, (or making money, to put it bluntly) is what most people comming into web development now, are interested in, and that means developing for the internet, as a whole, and not just web sites for the publics use.

 

In fact I cannot see why anyone would build a web site themselves or pay someone to do so anymore. Small buisnesses have much easier and cheaper ways to get a web presence, and personal sites have facebook.

B i r n o u
Legend
December 7, 2021

I share @osgood_'s vision and analysis.

 

It is true that for some participants in this forum, changing tools, but especially understanding the structural and fundamental change that this entails, can lead to a complex approach.


What to do?

 

Perhaps, in a first step, maybe simply help to solve, as well as possible and with the means available, the problem that led anyone to ask questions on this forum... whether it concerns Dreamweaver or not... in a second step, why not sketch a deeper answer by opening the hood, or lighter by directing them to online turnkey tools including WP, without being emotionally affected by the technology, whether it is futuristic or too old.


but in the end, it's up to everyone to refine their perspective, according to their needs, their means, and their context. and it is true that the tools offered by Adobe, as @AnnShelbourne points out, as well as a multitude of threads about the shortcomings of DW, add to the confusion, here on this particular forum.

Legend
December 7, 2021

I think the issue is a lot of contributors here are NOT professionals but somehow they have a necessity to undertake some minor web-development project/s infrequently, maybe for a personal project, a non-profit etc. They probably don't get paid and are doing it for a favour in most instances.  

 

I dont expect that category of consumer to know much about the web and its advances so they think the software/techniques that they have been using for 10+ years, for a few days a year, is still adequate and in a lot of cases it probably is if they dont know anything about web-development advanced techniques - most code created 10+ years ago will still show in a browser, be accessible on mobile or though not optimised for mobile.

 

I dont think this forum is the right place if you want to liaise with serious developers, its more like the Mickey Mouse web devlopment forum, sprinkled with a handful of more knowledgable contributors who get frustrated, obviously. 

 

You are on a mission to nowhere. The web has changed immeasurably over the last few years and its full of poor and bloated code now thanks to the rise and rise of automation, your wixs and webflows, squarespaces and frameworks etc. Rather than get frustrated I largely got out of the game.

Nancy OShea
Community Expert
Community Expert
December 7, 2021

Everyone has excuses for "doing whatever they want" but no matter.  I'm distancing myself from the long-standing farce that pretends to accept outdated ways which we know are not OK.  Obsolete web software belongs in a dumpster, not on people's desktops.  That goes for everyone — pros, amateurs, hobbyists and well-meaning volunteers. 

 

Now if one wants to keep using outdated image software, be my guest.  JPG and PNG bitmapps are not vitally important to how the web works and haven't changed much since their introduction in the 1990's.  But text-based SVG and lossless WebP images are better. 🙂

 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
Inspiring
December 7, 2021

One problem is that the Adobe Photoshop team working on the Export module have decided to drop the previously existing support for SVG in the new 2022 version of Ps; and neither is there any way to Save from Ps as a WebP.