'Typical'

[osgood_]

The only thing that is 'typical' is you locking a thread anytime you dont like what's been said.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

agree... but two points...

1- nope, you missed my point... one have a thread... then if one want to go off-topic... we link a new thread created in the lounge and continue there without bothering the OP and the initial question. we did that way so many time in prerelease.... don't you remember

2- do you think that british are not involve in photoshop, bridge, acrobat, illustrator... and so on

I remember how both cab and pre-release worked, but I also remember that when a new thread was created, many who took part in the off-topic part of the discussion, did not take part in the new discussion.

As for the second point, it is not that those programs have a different type of user base, more that they are well established, as are the workflows and user problems of the people who take part. Once something is established as the 'how to', the users and replys to questions are also established as the method to use. If they are not, (look at the disagreements and 'off-topic' discussions about using hi-dpi) then they also follow the same pattern as this forum.

There is 'no best way' in web development to do anything on the client side, and even on the server side there is still disagreements. The web is constantly evolving, and unlike the pre-mobile and hi-dpi era, the methods best used are  constantly being challenged by everyone, even to the point of new methods, (srcset, etc) being discarded by some just because it looks complicated.

[B i r n o u]

I wasn't talking about the CAB and the pre-release forum, which were two different forums with respect to the primacy of new features.... I was talking about the very structure of the forum itself which contained an announcements section and a lounge section...

so it was easy to continue the off-topic in the lounge section

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

A lounge section would be helpfull, but I don't think it would solve the going off-topic issue.

As long as there is copious amounts of coffee and ice-cream available, count me in

[Jon Fritz]

This shouldn't be that hard, why not call a truce?

Just answer the questions pertaining to the OP's workflow with information that fits that workflow. If their workflow isn't your cup of tea, move on to the next question.

Make the forum more useful by keeping posts on task and to the point. Nobody looking for Bootstrap info is going to find a 50 post thread, bickering with a lively debate back and forth about whether it should be used, useful. The same way someone who only hand codes isn't going to find much use in the 3' wall of text on why extensions are right or wrong. All they know is the place they came to for info is burying it in redundant, repetitive bickering lively debate.

Base everything on the OP's workflow, instead of yours...
If they're a hand coder, give straight .js, css, .php and .html answers. If you don't do it that way, move on.
If they're a Bootstrap user, bust out the wall-o-classes and point them to what they need. If you don't do it that way, move on.
If they have a budget and want to work within the UI with extensions, show them the latest and greatest. If not, move on.

If you need to explain why Bootstrap is a bloated beast, why extensions are garbage, or why handcoding should go extinct, start your own threads. Link to those threads "If you'd like to understand my point of view, click this link..." and keep the arguments lively debates away from the OPs posts.

Just my $0.02.

[osgood_]

No one usually asks for Bootstrap or hand coding solutions but often gets one or the other rammed down their necks depending on what the frequent posters here use as their own workflow.....so do you suggest we should not provide alternative options when nothing specfic is ask, just ignore the poster for fear of causing an upset? Unfortunatley it is the options which usually start the debate.

[Jon Fritz]

Then find out what they're using before giving answers that best fit their workflow.

If someone asks "How do I add a carousel to my page?" without giving any other information, it doesn't make sense to give them "a custom wall of code", "just redo your html and add Bootstrap..." or "Here's a $100 extension".

We need to make the forum make more sense. If every post has 6 ways of doing things, and 4 pages of the same 5 people arguing about which way is best, those posts becomes useless for people trying to find answers that fit their needs.

Nothing gets ignored here. Every workflow has a very, very active evangelist in this forum.

OP: How do I do X
Us: What are you using now (bootstrap, handcoding, extensions, copypasta)?

Based on their response, if you're not the one to help, there will be others willing to step in with answers within their workflow.

There's nothing wrong with a reply of "If you'd like an alternative way, here's a link to how I would do it..." or similar. That would probably also help with forum searches and ultimately get more people involved in those posts without the "I'm right/you're wrong" noise.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

Then find out what they're using before giving answers that best fit their workflow.

Believe me that's what has been suggested in the past in a lot of these debates you mention and it hasnt worked yet. Generally because the calibre of posters here are actually quite often without much knowledege of workflows, that only comes with time and experience.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

If someone asks "How do I add a carousel to my page?" without giving any other information, it doesn't make sense to give them "a custom wall of code", "just redo your html and add Bootstrap..." or "Here's a $100 extension".

Why doesnt it make sense to give them a choice of how to append a carousel to their page? When I personally look for solutions I like a few alternative options, preferably ones I understand and ones that are as simple as possible to implement. If someone provides an over elaborate workflow or poor suggestion should we just turn a blind eye?

[Jon Fritz]

Please reread the last sentence of my previous response.

I think it makes far more sense to start a new Discussion thread titled "How to hand code a carousel in your page" or "How to create a Bootstrap lightbox in Dreamweaver" and link to it, than it does to get in yet another argument, with Nancy on Bootstrap or Al on extensions, in a post where the OP ultimately only wanted a suggestion on a decent copy/paste jQuery plug-in.

That new, well-titled post, would also come up when searched by other users looking for the same or similar things. Those users would then be able to easily determine if it's the right answer for them, instead of wading through all the "I'm right... no I'm right/you're not professional... I'm professional/liters are best... no it's gallons" noise that constantly drowns out the responses they were looking for.

After a while, those very useful posts could easily become the default "Here's a good way to do it within your workflow..." linked answers. Arguing would also be a lot more difficult within those posts because the premise has been narrowed down and the answer is solid given the premise.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

Please reread the last sentence of my previous response.

I think it makes far more sense to start a new Discussion thread titled "How to hand code a carousel in your page" or "How to create a Bootstrap lightbox in Dreamweaver" and link to it, than it does to get in yet another argument, with Nancy on Bootstrap or Al on extensions, in a post where the OP ultimately only wanted a suggestion on a decent copy/paste jQuery plug-in.

Hasn't this forum got stickies like most other forums - we could all put our feet up and go home.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

After a while, those very useful posts could easily become the default "Here's a good way to do it within your workflow..." linked answers. Arguing would also be a lot more difficult within those posts because the premise has been narrowed down and the answer is solid given the premise.

Debating is good and healthy. I personally dont see much wrong with the way the forum works. There is some pretty good points being made in most of these debates - people should use them to enlighten themselves, that's the way forward in my opinion otherwise its all ends up just being a bit boring and stale.

[B i r n o u]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  a écrit

If every post has 6 ways of doing things, and 4 pages of the same 5 people arguing about which way is best, those posts becomes useless for people trying to find answers that fit their needs.

yep, 1000% agree, that is where the lounge section has a way to be used for....

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II   a écrit

If every post has 6 ways of doing things, and 4 pages of the same 5 people arguing about which way is best, those posts becomes useless for people trying to find answers that fit their needs.

If users are keen to find answers they will, regardless of the pages of alternative views. In fact the alternative views present users with much more information which they can use to come to a more informative decision as to what to use.

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

If users are keen to find answers they will, regardless of the pages of alternative views. In fact the alternative views present users with much more information which they can use to come to a more informative decision as to what to use.

be careful not to make any confusion or hasty shortcuts....

what we are talking about often leads to initial out of question proposals, or free-flowing discussions on why and how... it is not the possible statements about alternative solutions... but substantive discussions that sometimes only take place between two interlocutors and that have nothing to do with the original question... ... what I often qualify of balcony talks...

and then the lounge structure would be more appropriate....

a little like what we're talking about, right now... the original question was about closing a topic, and now we're talking about having a lounge section dedicated to the irrelevant topic

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

a little like what we're talking about, right now... the original question was about closing a topic, and now we're talking about having a lounge section dedicated to the irrelevant topic

The topic that was locked, and the part of the discussion that caused it to be locked, was about posters marking their own post(s) as helpfull, (as happened in the discussion). Whilst that part of the original discussion could be regarded as off-topic, is it o/k or not for someone to mark their own post(s) as helpfull?

We know that no points are awarded in such actions, but as far as I can see every post I make is helpfull, so should I then mark every one of my posts as helpfull. I would say no, as I have no idea if they are helpfull or not.

We also have the situation in which moderators can mark their own post as correct, in such a case points are awarded. Is that acceptable, or should marking an answer as correct be decided by someone who has not taken part in the discussion?

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

The topic that was locked, and the part of the discussion that caused it to be locked, was about posters marking their own post(s) as helpfull, (as happened in the discussion). Whilst that part of the original discussion could be regarded as off-topic, is it o/k or not for someone to mark their own post(s) as helpfull?

We know that no points are awarded in such actions, but as far as I can see every post I make is helpfull, so should I then mark every one of my posts as helpfull. I would say no, as I have no idea if they are helpfull or not.

We also have the situation in which moderators can mark their own post as correct, in such a case points are awarded. Is that acceptable, or should marking an answer as correct be decided by someone who has not taken part in the discussion?

That's exactly what I feel, about marking posts, as you already know!

Lots of posts which are marked correct are marked correct incorrectly, without providing any examples of why they are supposed to be correct. I dont mind if someone marks something as correct if a working example is provided so users can learn from the solution but not something that has been marked correct just because someone has provide a url to a source they only think is correct, thats incorrect!

[ALsp]

Correct.

[BenPleysier]

ALsp  wrote

Correct.

How can it be correct when, for some, it is incorrect. It is like saying 'Who is on first base'. Yes, Who is on first base unless he steals second base. In which case, What could steel third base.

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

osgood_   a écrit

If users are keen to find answers they will, regardless of the pages of alternative views. In fact the alternative views present users with much more information which they can use to come to a more informative decision as to what to use.

be careful not to make any confusion or hasty shortcuts....

what we are talking about often leads to initial out of question proposals, or free-flowing discussions on why and how... it is not the possible statements about alternative solutions... but substantive discussions that sometimes only take place between two interlocutors and that have nothing to do with the original question... ... what I often qualify of balcony talks...

I put that down to lack of committment by other forum contributors who seem not to want to get involved with discussing web-developement in general but prefering to just provide 'blunt' answers. A forum should be much more than that in my opinion. The forum which preceeded this one attracted far more varied and  interesting contributors and conversations. It too suffered from what we are discussion but hey it made it more lively and entertaining in my opinion. I think I would quickly fall into a coma if it wasnt for the 'banter' that goes on such is the lack of interest from all, apart from the handful of regular contributors that keep it ticking over.

[B i r n o u]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  a écrit

OP: How do I do X
Us: What are you using now (bootstrap, handcoding, extensions, copypasta)?

Based on their response, if you're not the one to help, there will be others willing to step in with answers within their workflow.

Oh how, I agree with you, even if I don't have your wisdom, helping the other has already started by listening to him or her...

and on this subject I love this guy, Ernesto Sirolli... please, take a few minutes on this conference, it's cruelly true, and said with such humour that even the French that I am, am able to perceive the crumbs of intelligence that fall from each of his lines

Want to help someone? Shut up and listen! - Ernesto Sirolli - YouTube

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

This shouldn't be that hard, why not call a truce?

I've tried suggesting that, but it never lasts .

For me the biggest problem is not finding out what the OP wants, but what the OP knows. There is no point in me, (or anyone else) providing suggestions, be that code, links or whatever, if the OP then says they have no idea what to do with it, or that they do not want to code.

Previously we could say to none coders that they should try Muse, but that option is no longer really viable anymore. As for all the other options for none coders that have been suggested in the Muse forum, (and to a much lesser degree, in this forum) I am just as confused as to which is best as many Muse users.

What we should agree on though, is that once we know what the OP wants, then any other suggestions be they bootstrap, css, js, jQuery or whatever are no longer relevant, and should not be marked correct or helpfull by anyone else, ('like' is o/k). Which is what started this discussion.

[ALsp]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

This shouldn't be that hard, why not call a truce?

Just answer the questions pertaining to the OP's workflow with information that fits that workflow. If their workflow isn't your cup of tea, move on to the next question.

Well said, except I think the issues go a lot deeper and are more related to the culture of this community... which is highly political. Dreamweaver has been shaped by a few voices over the past 8-10 years and if you look at what Dreamweaver has become you might conclude those voices have not had a positive impact. Dreamweaver used to be like a high school football team and the old newsgroup was kind of like spirit day all week long. The original evangelists and "experts" have either retired or have gradually been pushed out. Keeping this as impersonal as I can, I think there is a dearth of coding expertise. While some of the folks here are clearly anti-extensions, they are pro-frameworks and plugins. To me that is merely replacing one devil with another. There are a handful of talented coders that hang around here, but it's getting more and more like a Microsoft forum, where the MVPs cannot manage to think outside the mother application box.

Truces are fine, but they need tend not to work unless there is some degree of harmony waiting on the other side. I think that ship has sailed. Hopefully, it won't sink.

Osgood and Paula generally provide excellent, insightful coding advice. Ben tends to promote Bootstrap and DMX Zone. Nancy is head of the Bootstrap department. I walk the line between pure coding and the use of extensions. You are kind of like the forum Gandhi... and then we have a few trolls and semi-trolls that seem to like to shake things up.

As for me, the problem I have with Bootstrap (aside from the fact that I consider it poor code) is that some folks here are touting it such a way as to make users think it is the only way to go when using Dreamweaver. They are evangelizing not Dreamweaver, but their own way of working, which is never a good idea.

$.02

[BenPleysier]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

This shouldn't be that hard, why not call a truce?

Just answer the questions pertaining to the OP's workflow with information that fits that workflow. If their workflow isn't your cup of tea, move on to the next question.

I think that this is the crux of the matter.

The reason that I promote Bootstrap is quite simple, it is included as a toolbox within Dreamweaver. Prior to that I was (and still am) fond of another framework called Foundation. I stopped talking about Foundation because it is not included in Dreamweaver. After all, this is a Dreamweaver forum and to ignore the tools that are available would deny Dreamweaver users of the functionality that is available.

And please do not give me BS (no not Bootstrap) about it being bloated when the same emphasis is not given given to a far more damaging phenomenon called images. It is a small team that is in opposition to Bootstrap and every chance is seized by that team to say so.

Ben tends to promote Bootstrap and DMX Zone.

Please get your facts right. I do not have any (financial) interest to promote any product, unlike. I am happy to talk about both products in the same manner that I would talk about other products that I am happy with.

They are evangelizing not Dreamweaver, but their own way of working, which is never a good idea.

I think that you mean that we are not evangelising a crippled version of Dreamweaver, devoid of Bootstrap. In which case I wholly agree. As for working in our own way? Perhaps you could explain what you do.

I think that Jon has hit the nail on its head and I fully support his stance.

[ALsp]

I think that you mean that we are not evangelising a crippled version of Dreamweaver, devoid of Bootstrap. In which case I wholly agree. As for working in our own way? Perhaps you could explain what you do.

I think that Jon has hit the nail on its head and I fully support his stance.

Do you even realize how disconnected, yet amazingly revealing the above 2 sentences are regarding what's wrong with this forum? Probably not.

And if you cannot see that saying you support Bootstrap over Foundation because Bootstrap is some sort of tool within Dreamweaver is a little narrow? My grandfather had a bad case of toenail fungus once. While the fungus was a part of his toe, he was not very happy about it and didn't give up until he killed it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

To use Bootstrap effectively (and that does not include getting handed snippets of code from this forum) one must learn CSS to the point where they reach a major crossroads...

Do I continue to use a bloated (yep, there is no denying it is bloated) framework made by others when I now know enough to do it myself?

This is a classic debate in the sense that the truth hardly matters anymore, but in real life, and at the end of the day, truth is the only thing can set you free

[pziecina]

This is a classic debate in the sense that the truth hardly matters anymore, but in real life, and at the end of the day, truth is the only thing can set you free

A question that I think should also be asked, is what type of user, uses Dw.

Dw includes a code editor, it even has pre/post- processors, emmet, linting, code hinting, features that seem to be ignored completely. If the majority of users are students or people using Dw to learn how to code in order to advance their career prospects, or even experianced coders, (probably more than we care to admit), then they should not be learning to use bootstrap or extensions to produce web sites, as there is no certainty that frameworks or anything beyond a code editor will be available to them in their future employment.

Defaulting to anything beyond code does not help such users. I have no objections to anyone using a framework or extensions, (I've used both in the past) but defaulting to answers that rely on them is not the correct or helpfull answer, for long term prospects unless the poster specifically states that is what the are using, (for all we know Dw could be cancelled at some point, what then).

I still think that some form of code tutorial section to this forum, that goes beyond what Adobe now offers, (just videos) would go some way to helping everyone. As there would be a semi permanent section to not just direct users to, but also examples for users to learn from. Including frameworks, extensions and code.

[ALsp]

Paula,

Everything you say is erudite and insightful, except:

then they should not be learning to use bootstrap or extensions to produce web sites

Don't you think that there are people that have no interest in learning how to code - at least at the expert level? I know they are out there, because it describes a rather large percentage of our customers . There are also decent coders who use extensions as time-savers to automate tasks they could do manually. There are also extensions that provide functionality inside Dreamweaver and have nothing to do with the code that winds up on a web page.

[pziecina]

AL,

I am talking entirerly about students and those learning, (or re-learning) to build web sites, in order to better their chances of finding employment. I am not talking about self-employed or Dw users who use it to build or maintain their own site(s).

Students and other in such a position, should and would not in my opinion be advised to concentrate on any framework or rely on extensions. Simply because they will have no guarantee that any future employer will even use any open source framework, and even if they do which one is also not known, there is also no guarantee that they will even use Dw. If a future employer does not use Dw, then using extensions as anything more than a learning aid, (expensive if they cannot offset the cost) is also not recommended.

Dw's code editor is not the best, but for learning it is adequate, but again students should not rely on the features included with Dw's code editor entirely.

In theory with Dw's code editor being a version of the Brackets code editor, this forum should also be able to help users of Brackets who wish to learn how to build a web site.