Adobe Please Update Image Trace in AI

[westdr1dw]

Totally undestand the business aspects of focusing on tools which have the most users. However Image Trace appears stuck in a time warp and not moving forward. May be stretching but with the AI, ML tools Image Trace should be far more capable than the current form. The inability to distinguish lines in an image is of concern. You should be able to draw more interest to take raster drawings to the next level with Illustrator. Has been almost 24 years when this was released. Defintely time to take to the next level.

[Monika Gause]

Please post feature requests to https://illustrator.uservoice.com 

[westdr1dw]

Thanks for the link Monika 

[Bobby Henderson]

While Live Trace and Live Paint could use some improvements these kinds of raster to vector conversion filters are, at best, going to get only so good. The tools are limited even more by the varying quality of source imagery being fed into them.

I lowered my expectations of auto-tracing tools a long time ago. They might be okay to use for quick and dirty work. Sometimes I'll use the tools to create deliberately grungy objects, but even then I'll have to fix overlapping paths and clean up little bits of vector trash scattered around the resulting shapes. When I need a clean and precise conversion of pixel-based artwork into vector form I usually have to re-build it by hand. If lettering is involved hopefully I have the same fonts used in the design.

[westdr1dw]

Bobby;

Appreciate the reply. However, this is my point. Not sure they have really done much to enhance the interoperability between the Creative Cloud apps. Adobe has made tremendous strides in their software. I recall with ver 5 of PS and the steep learning curve just to learn the basics. With 25.5.1 they have really made life easy. Should be no reason to lower expectations. I have confidence Adobe can achieve this in a very short time. Then bring back the Users who lost confidence.

[Monika Gause]

And your concern is that it cannot trace contours very well?

I have a surprise for you: Particularly in order to get better contour trcing, you will absolutely need what is called artificial intelligance. Only with A.I., Illustrator will be able to make sense out of this: 

What is the outer shape and what is the decoration? Any autotrace module needs to be able to tell those apart in order to make meaningful contour traces. 

[westdr1dw]

Monika;

Not sure if this is a rhetorical question regarding AI. And may be my expectations in applying AI, ML, and Computer Vision are too high. However, if there is even a shade contrast between a reasonable value of ~200 or less Image Trace should be able to detect and connect the dots. High probably some very minor tweaking may still be required. I will have to defer to you and the other AI SME's on what is achievable.

[Bobby Henderson]

Every auto-tracing filter ever developed, from the quaint days of Adobe Streamline over 30 years ago to what we have today, faces the same limitations. Those vector conversion tools can "see" only so much in a grid of pixels. The resulting paths are always going to be a loose approximation of what the user desires. The only way the paths can be precise is if the auto-tracing filter is fed a pixel-based image that is both simple in content and very high in native resolution. And even in that scenario some clean-up work might still be required.

That task of detecting and connecting the dots is not as easy as it seems. In order to get results that are accurate and clean the auto-tracing system would need something even better than so-called A.I. to do the trick. The computer would need Artificial General Intelligence. AGI includes the powers of subjective thinking and reasoning, the ability to understand abstract concepts. AGI is what could allow a computer to have a sense of self and gain consciousness. We're still a long way from that.

A square grid of pixels is, in some respects, a lousy way to visually store and represent an image. The photoceptors in our eyes are not arranged in a grid. The pattern is organic and random. The grains of emulsion on film negatives is randomly dispersed. So why hasn't the computing industry replaced the square grid image metaphor with something better by now? We've only been stuck with this grid thing for more than half a century. What I'm asking (rhetorically) is absurd. Computing technology has come a very long way since the 1970's. But we still have barriers we have to live with.

[westdr1dw]

Was reading a few articles on Adobe research in using AI, ML,LLM, and Computer Vision. A perception is Adobe is an industry leader with an abundance of resources to break the paradiagm(s) in photo, and content creation. When a company shows potential  they acquire the biz. However, have they gotten too big to breakout? Expecting major changes in near future (3 years) with the technology they have. Still recall when Adobe demonstrated Sky replacment. They did not field it for 3-5 years later.

[Monika Gause]

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@westdr1dw  schrieb:

However, if there is even a shade contrast between a reasonable value of ~200 or less Image Trace should be able to detect and connect the dots. 

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I don't think you fully understand the problem. vector paths cannot have Y-connectors. So when 3 or more lines cross, then which ones should it join?

And for that to decide it needs to detect what is depicted here and what part of that image is exactly what. And it would also need to know how to draw each of these parts.

[westdr1dw]

All three lines. One would hope through AI, ML, and Computer Vision a pattern could be detected and connect the dots.  

[Bobby Henderson]

I think you're disregarding some of the basics of how vector paths work. Three paths connecting in a "Y" shaped intersection will remain open and not be able to properly hold a fill. Only properly closed paths can correctly hold fills. Vectors behave very different compared to pixel-based artwork.

[westdr1dw]

Have to think optimistic in the path forward. Rules and laws have workarounds. When people claim it cannot be achieved it only makes others work harder. Whether the change which needs to occur is based on a square or mathematical formula someone will derive a solution.

[Doug A Roberts]

We've gone from updating image trace to fundamentally changing how the software works?

[westdr1dw]

No disrespect  on your skills or integrity. However for a Community Experts this group appears to lack faith in Adobe finding a solution. Should be thinking for an out of box solution. Mercedes has achieved Level 4 ADAS. I believe Vectoring is one of the algorithms in use in some of the applications out there.  And you doubt a solution to enhance an app which has been out for over 25 years. Have some faith Adobe can achieve this.

[Monika Gause]

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@westdr1dw  schrieb:

When people claim it cannot be achieved it only makes others work harder. 

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This is one of the basics of how vector paths work. You want to have that changed? Good luck with that.

[westdr1dw]

May be a mis-perception on my behalf. I was a little surprised with the resistance from Community Experts in the AI group. Ever since I can remember the inherit traits of an Artist - Artistic people are creative, independent, expressive, imaginative, original, and intuitive. They like to compose, write, appreciate the arts, create, imagine, and generate new ideas. Not trying to be offensive, but is this still true today as it was in the past?  We can achieve this. 

[Bobby Henderson]

Artistic creative expression has nothing to do with the fundamental basics on how vector paths work. It's a math thing.

[westdr1dw]

Bobby have faith. Someone or something will solve the equation soon. 

[Bobby Henderson]

There is no changing the laws of geometry and the fundamentals of how vector graphics work. If it was possible to reanimate Euclid from the grave even he wouldn't be able to change it. And the way vectors work doesn't need to be changed either.

[westdr1dw]

No, Euclid would probably not succed since he would be stuck in a time warp.  Some of his theories have also been disproven over the years. A great mind indeed; however, had limitations in the era he was alive. One idea may be a hybrid solution to overcome the challenges? Who knows what the future of AI and all of the areas they are exploring can be. 

[Monika Gause]

You might want to practice with the pen tool instead. Because Image Trace will most probably not be changed in the way you dream of.

[westdr1dw]

Thanks Monika. I have been using the Pen Tool family for a while now. All have their own merits. Really looking forward to seeing the next major AI release.

[westdr1dw]

Hello Everyone;

Any recommendations on the best approach for correcting Image Trace errors (?) I have attached an image I ran Image Trace over. There are several inconsistencies. Some are the lines are too light in contrast for Illustrator to determine. I can add these back in. 

Q1: Can the original image be lightened where I can trace with the Pen Tool?

Q2: The side of the temple has what appear to be rectangle windows in the image. Image Trace has made these anything but rectangle. How to straighten the lines?

Thanks

[Monika Gause]

and the attached is what? The original image? The trace result?

Why would you want to trace that kind of image? There is software that can help you enlarge it using artificial intelligence.