Space before paragraph

[sPretzel]

Hello,

There is a behaviour I don't understand in "Space before paragraph". Perhaps someone can explain to me what is going on.

1- Create a text box. On the first line, type a word in font size 12pt, Times New Roman. Press enter (carriage return). Go to the Paragraph menu and make sure "Space before paragraph" and "Space after paragraph" are set to 0.

2- On the second line, type a word in font size 50pt, Times New Roman. Go to the Paragraph menu and in "Space before paragraph", type -10pt. The line does not move up at all. Press enter.

3- On the third line, type a word in font size 12pt, Times New Roman. Make sure "Space before paragraph" is set to 0 for this line. Press enter.

4- On the fourth line, type a word in font size 50pt, Times New Roman. Go to the Paragraph menu and in "Space before paragraph", type -10pt. The line moves up.

Why does the line in #2 not move up as it does in #4? I expect the second line to move up by 10pt.

Thanks.

This is for CS4.

[SJRiegel]

I cannot test this is CS4, but in CC2017, the text moves up exactly as it should.

maybe someone with CS4 could runs the same test to see if they can duplicate your problem.

[sPretzel]

Thanks SJRiegel. Good to know I'm expecting the right thing. I hope someone can check/reproduce the problem in CS4 or other.

[sPretzel]

Actually, I must rephrase the original post (I couldn't edit it). SJRiegel, please try again the following, if you don't mind:

Hello,

There is a behaviour I don't understand in "Space before paragraph". Perhaps someone can explain to me what is going on.

1- Create a text box. On the first line, type a word in font size 12pt, Times New Roman. Press enter (carriage return). Go to the Paragraph menu and make sure "Space before paragraph" and "Space after paragraph" are set to 0.

2- On the second line, type a word in font size 50pt, Times New Roman. Go to the Paragraph menu and in "Space before paragraph", type -40pt. The line moves up some but not by all 40pt. Press enter.

3- On the third line, type a word in font size 12pt, Times New Roman. Make sure "Space before paragraph" is set to 0 for this line. Press enter.

4- On the fourth line, type a word in font size 50pt, Times New Roman. Go to the Paragraph menu and in "Space before paragraph", type -40pt. The line moves up 40 pt.

Why does the line in #2 not move up as much as the line in #4? I expect the second line to move up by 40pt too.

Thanks.

This is for CS4.

[John Mensinger]

Hmmm...I suppose I've reproduced it (in CC 2017).

If the question is "why?"

I don't know.

But I have suspicions that it has something to do with conflict between a negative Space Before and auto-leading.

Maybe I'm missing something, but honestly, I can't imagine a scenario in which anyone would attempt or need to set type this way, especially in Illustrator.

So I'd be more inclined to as "Why...does it matter?"

[Monika Gause]

I thing this has to do with the first line rule in the area type settings.

If you go to Type > Area type settings and then set  the first line rule to "fixed" at a value of 40 pt, you will get your result. Make that value even higher and the complete text nlock will move down.

[sPretzel]

Thanks everyone. Monika, what you suggest is almost what I want, except that instead of the first line dropping down, I need the second line to move up.

As to why, it is very simple and bad type indeed but it's the visual I'm after here (of course, there are plenty ways to work around this but I am bothered I don't understand what is happening). I simply have two lines where the first line has a small point size and the second line has a larger point size. I am trying to adjust the spacing between the two lines, as visually, the default leading of the second line is not appropriate (one workaround would be to adjust the value of that leading, instead of the "space before paragraph").

The reason I added a third and fourth line in the example is to show that "space before paragraph" works for lines 3 and 4 as expected. So the leading issue doesn't appear to be the cause, otherwise, the same problem would exist for lines 3 and 4, wouldn't it?

[Mike_Gondek]

Select by paragraph and use baseline shift.

Shift Option (up or down arrow)

[Monika Gause]

Use point text instead.

[sPretzel]

Mike, that's a good workaround. Though it doesn't explain if the AI's behaviour in my example, with "space before paragraph", is incorrect and why.

Monika, it so happens that in my "bad type" example, I need area type text because I have to be able to set the width of all lines to a certain value, which I can nicely do with the text box.

[Mike_Gondek]

Reading about the first baseline area type option may help better explain.

Ascent
The height of the “d” character falls below the top of the type object.

Cap Height
The tops of uppercase letters touch the top of the type object.

Leading
Uses the text’s leading value as the distance between the baseline of the first line of text and the top of the type object.

x Height
The height of the “x” character falls below the top of the type object.

Em Box Height
The top of the em box in Asian fonts touches the top of the type object. This option is available regardless of the Show Asian Options preference.

Fixed
Specifies the distance between the baseline of the first line of text and the top of the type object in the Min box.

Legacy
Uses the first baseline default used in Adobe Illustrator 10 or earlier.

[Mike_Gondek]

In the second column looks wrong as the type did not go up by 40pts, but by about 8 puts. That is because there is not enough leading above the type.

Most people would never set type this way, so we never run across this. Probably best you show us what you are trying to do, as you are making this tougher than need to be. But if you do not post a sample using dropbox (or similar) or provide clear concise instructions,  than I will not be able to help you.