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Adobe refunds for Pantone in the way?

Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Just wondering if indesign and CC users have received your Pantone refunds yet? I haven't. You'd think if Adobe sold you a subscription that included Pantone colors, and then stopped paying Pantone for that license, that they would, you know, be the big one... and refund the amount (which according to Pantone is $15/mo) and make an appropriate adjustment to the subscription rate. I mean... you'd think that, right. Time to start screaming folks, as this.... this just isn't right. 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Adobe didn't stop paying Pantone for that License.

Pantone changed the terms of the license. 

 

 

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Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Every so often, Adobe changes the terms of your license by raising its price. You have a right to agree to those terms or not. If you decide not to agree, you stop paying for the license. Just like Adobe did here when Pantone changes the terms. 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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I have never actually read the license, but I don't imagine you will find any program or service _guaranteed_ in the terms. Programs come and go; services come and go. I remember the Digital Publishing Suite (InDesign), Fireworks, SpeedGrade, and others I've probably forgotten about. This has occurred even before the Creative Cloud/Suite: ImageReady (from Photoshop), Dimensions (not the 3D program), Streamline, etc.

 

For better or worse, one still has to abide by the length and terms of the subscription agreement.

 

 

David Creamer: Community Expert, Adobe Certified Instructor, and Adobe Certified Expert (since 1995)

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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The color book .acb files are effectively the same as fonts—they have to be installed. If Adobe removes the Emigre library from Adobe Fonts would they owe you a refund? If you think you own the Pantone .acb files from an earlier version, why not install them your self in the latest version?

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Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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All beside the point. Today Adobe's subscription is worth less than it was. This issue is between Adobe and Pantone... I have no say in the matter. Adobe is now paying less as they are no longer licensing the library. Adobe should do the right thing and adjust their subscriptions to reflect the change. It's really simple. 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Honestly, I understand your frustration, but you don't have a legal leg to stand on here. As already pointed out, the CC subscription has changed with services added and removed through the last decade. As much as you want those Pantone swatches, I would go so far as to say you are in a very small minority when it comes to this.

 

If nobody told me they were gone, I wouldn't miss them. Been many years since I needed them.

 

Only you can decide if you want to continue with it.

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Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Who said anything about "legal" legs? And just because you don't do print/identity work, doesn't mean that others don't. Look... I'm a meat and potatoes kinda guy. If a restaurant gets in a fight with their potato supplier, and just serves me meat.. well they owe me for the potatoes. And sure I can eat somewhere else, except.. Adobe is in fact, largely a Monopoly in the design space, so no I can't eat somewhere else. Now.. Adobe has just offloaded a license that has been part of their software since nearly the beginning, to the tune of $15/mo. That's not nothing to them, or to the "vast minority" of  users who actually know what printer ink smells like. Lucky you to not care when you pay for something you're not getting. Must be nice. I'll stick by my original point.. Adobe "should" adjust their licenses to reflect their savings on Pantone. Or they should develop another industry standard to replace it. (And look, Pantone deciding now's the time to cash in on a library that is at a low point in its importance is ridiculous. We will all find our ways around it, because anyone who would pay $15/mo when they are already paying Adobe for it.. [abuse removed]

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Again, I get the frustration but for a decade while adding services and features there were no increases with each one. This is a package of services. What's in it changes from time to time.

 

I'm sorry you're going through a hard time because of it. When Adobe killed DPS, it really pulled the rug out from under me. I was as angry as I've ever been in almost 30 years of using their products. They've killed Flash, GoLive, FormsCentral, Business Catalyst, Muse, and well, I could go on but you get the picture. None of those resulted in a lowered price and neither will this.

 

Finally, calling Adobe a monopoly doesn't make them one. There's plenty of competition out there.

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Not a monopoly. Plenty of other software, Quark, Affinity and a few others.

 

The cost of the Pantone subscription is not that bad.

 

Pantone really have a lot to answer for here.

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Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Ha...apparently too much "benevolence" around here, and very little understanding of what a monopoly is. Affinity has .01 % of the photo market and .07% of the designer market. Quark is huge by comparison...with .44 ie...less than half of one percent of the market in desktop publishing. Saying Adobe isn't a monopoly doesn't make them 'not' a monopoly. By all standards previous monopolies  have been held to, Adobe is a monopoly. Just because there are competitors in the market doesn't mean Adobe doesn't engage in monopolistic practices nor control the market in such a way that no competitor can ever obtain a foothold and you know...actually compete. Just remember quark once held 95% of the desktop publishing market....Adobe leveraged it's photo and illustration programs, bought out all the remaining competition (including my beloved Freehand) and reversed the market share in the one area they didn't control. That's how monopolies work. 

 

But fine. Everyone around here appears to think Adobe is a benevolent monopoly...which is why we're all paying for expensive subscriptions instead of holding a license. Those subscriptions allow all that benevolent "removal" of features whenever adobe feels like it. It allows for them to raise prices whenever. It allows them to not do right by their customers. Glad you're all on board. Go Team. 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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I'm curious about your market numbers. What is your source about how large the share of Quark, Affinity etc. is?

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Community Expert ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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Adobe didn't kill or buy out FreeHand. They purchased Aldus to get the technology behind InDesign. Aldus licensed FreeHand from Altsys. Adobe was required to return FreeHand to Altsys by order of the FTC.

 

David Creamer: Community Expert, Adobe Certified Instructor, and Adobe Certified Expert (since 1995)

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Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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Nice try Mr. Creamer. Next time maybe read past the second sentence of the Wikipedia Page....if you had, you'd realize:  ".....Altsys was later bought by Macromedia, which released FreeHand versions 5 through 11 (FreeHand MX). In 2005, Adobe Systems acquired Macromedia and its product line which included FreeHand MX, under whose ownership it presently resides. . Furthermore, and I'd think a ACF would know this...Adobe still has a Freehand page...in which it states in less violent terms...that it killed freehand, and encourages you to try it's other products.  https://www.adobe.com/mena_en/products/freehand/  Excuse me for not feeling all warm and fuzzy about a company that bought a superior (at the time) program, one that was better than Illustrator and Indesign put together, and then killed it, which, left many users in the lerch. Eventually, most of those users had little choice but to migrate to adobe products which allowed them to build out the subscription model they have today. Adobe has no meaningful competition in the market today due to anti-competitive practices in the past (and present), and anyone arguing otherwise just has their head in the sand, or simply wasn't around for it. 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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@barrygoyette  schrieb:

Nice try Mr. Creamer. Next time maybe read past the second sentence of the Wikipedia Page....if you had, you'd realize:  ".....Altsys was later bought by Macromedia, which released FreeHand versions 5 through 11 (FreeHand MX). In 2005, Adobe Systems acquired Macromedia and its product line which included FreeHand MX, under whose ownership it presently resides. .


 

Maybe do some research beyond Wikipedia. Macromedia killed FreeHand. Source: https://losingfight.com/blog/2007/05/17/rip-freehand/

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Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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:-). Ha...ok...Sure, under Macromedia, Freehand definitely was headed in the wrong direction and it was obvious to users that something was amiss. The writing was on the wall, but no...it was still a viable product with a large base of users. While it may have felt dead to someone working on it's development, it didn't to users. As far as the actual murder weapon, and "body" --that all falls to Adobe, which owned two programs that barely covered what Freehand could do. Much better to sell licenses and then subscriptions to two programs with Freehand out of the way. Regardless, Adobe acquiring Flash in that deal was a classic monopolistic practice (purchasing competition rather than innovating), which gave Adobe new dominance in the web development space that it lacked at the time. 

 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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I know what a monopoly is. 

If Adobe had a monopoly on the Pantone swatches (made by a different company - who by the way changed their license (it wasn't Adobe that changed it)) then no other software would have them. 

 

What you are accusing Adobe of being a monopoly and the exact opposite has happened. Adobe no longer have a license with Pantone (who changed their license with Adobe) - and others still maintain theirs. 

 

I don't know how you can say Adobe are a monopoly when they are being pushed out by Pantone in favour of other agreements with other software.

 

It's not logical.

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Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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I don't know how you can say Adobe are a monopoly when they are being pushed out by Pantone in favour of other agreements with other software.

 

Where did you get this from? Look Adobe isn't yet a competitor to Pantone, and Adobe doesn't get "pushed out" by anyone except perhaps Steve Jobs (may he rest in peace). Pantone obviously wanted more money for the license, and Adobe didn't want to pay for it. It's ALWAYS about money. Pantone didn't "push" anybody out. They couldn't agree on a license and decided to part ways (which often happens when one of the partners is large enough that they simply don't have to play ball). All fine and good. Today you're paying for something that you used to get that you don't any more. If you're fine with it...then say that.  But don't act like Adobe isn't the 800lb gorilla in this fight. As of today it has a $144 billion market cap. X-rite, that owns Pantone is a $478 million company.  You could fit 300 X-rites inside Adobe...or rather...like all the others mentioned above...Pantone, which is a small part of X-Rite...is like .003 the size of your benevolent corporate design master. 

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Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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Explorer ,
Nov 02, 2022 Nov 02, 2022

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I know what a monopoly is.

 

I'm really not sure you do. Adobe, like many tech companies, has persued acquisitions in it's history that have allowed it to achieve monopoly status, at least as defined by the Federal Trade Commission. Throughout the last 2 decades we've seen very few anti-trust cases in the US, but that's not to say that they weren't warranted. Facebook buying the tiny Whatsapp for 20 billion and later Instagram is a classic example, and today would be looked at with much more scrutiny. Adobe is currently doing something similar with Figma...paying 20billion for a tiny company that happens to have a tech that could make Adobe even more dominant. You may see that as fine and dandy, but that's exactly the kind of thing that regulators start looking at. (ATT was broken up when started aquiring cable assets, with the government arguing that while they were different businesses, they would give ATT too much control). Hindsight isn't 2020 but I guarantee you if the gov had blocked the purchase of Macromedia Quark wouldn't be the shadow of it's former self that it is today. Freehand was a superior product to Illustrator/Pagemaker/Indesign, but Adobe was able to compete because of it's larger suite of applications (and it's inroads into education, and let's not forget PDF). It became anti-competitive when it bought out the competition. (ostensibly for the Flash technology, but the side effects of eliminating the other programs in the Macromedia portfolio were a win for Adobe). Really simple. The landscape would likely be much different today if that hadn't happened, and I can almost guarantee you'd be paying less for AdobeCC, and would probably have Pantone libraries in your 2023 version. 

 

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Now.. Adobe has just offloaded a license that has been part of their software since nearly the beginning, to the tune of $15/mo.

 

Has Adobe made it a violation of their EULA to copy the .acb files from your CC2022 installation into your CC2023 installation? If that’s the case are all existing documents with Pantone swatches a violation?

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Advisor ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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$15/month is for you or me trying to go directly to PANTONE - for Adobe it would be cents or less when divided per sold CC licence. 

Can automate anything - as long as it doesn't require A.I.

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Explorer ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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Of course. My point is really that adobe and pantone should work this out. If this essential feature of the entire suite of products is going to cost users an extra $15/month. From the USER side this is a defacto increase of $15/mo. What Adobe pays for it is irrelevant.  

 

Regardless...apparently my read on this issue goes against the grain in this place. My hope was to encourage others to speak out (frankly...most people don't even know about it, and won't till that next branding project starts up). I'll just quietly go back to complaining about how bad the current AI selection tools are in LR 12, and how they are a step backward from the previous version. Cheers!

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Advisor ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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My point was - you can't expect $15/month refund on your CC subscription - when Adobe would have to pay pennies. 

Can automate anything - as long as it doesn't require A.I.

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Community Expert ,
Nov 01, 2022 Nov 01, 2022

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I hope you don't think we were writing you off. We're not. At least I'm not.

 

Just trying to keep your expectations in check.

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