Inspiring

Question

callas pdfToolbox vs. Adobe onboart tools

Forum|Forum|3 years ago
January 12, 2023
4 replies
11678 views

Hi everybody.

My following question is a larger topic, but I just want to keep it as simple as possible: PDF export to InDesign with a press-ready color management.

The framework conditions: MAC OS, InDesign CC21, Adobe DC Professional, callas pdfToolbox (as a plugin or use independently of an application). The output (ISO Coated V2 for the cover and SC paper (ECI) for the content) goes to a printing house.

In recent years, our workflow has been as follows:

- do the job with InDesign

- Export PDF

- Separating the pages into individual pages

- Converting colors in Acrobat using the pdfToolbox plugin (this step for SC paper content only)

- Profiling PDF X4 (with custom profile) in Acrobat with pdfToolbox plugin

After that, the catalog was ready for printing. The conformance in Acrobat shows (for the content): PDF/X-4, Identifier is FOGRA40 and Profile Info is SC Paper (ECI).

I'm wondering if I don't use the plugin and create the color conversion job using the Adobe tools, can I get the same result with it? Please see the screenshot showing the settings in the InDesign exporter.

Of course I've already tried it, but in fact it was a big visual difference to the result with the callas pdfToolbox. So something might not be right there.

Color management is a big topic, I know, but what's the mistake in this case? To me the way with onboard tools sounds reasonable. 🙂

I would appreciate your answers

This topic has been closed for replies.

C

cmoke73Author

Inspiring

Dear contributors

The initial question in this thread was whether the onboard tools from Adobe can achieve qualitatively comparable results as the third-party software from callas. Many responses have been received that delve deep into the topic. Thanks for that! Unfortunately for me, at a certain point I reach the limits of my knowledge when it comes to the physics of color management. Also due to lack of time and lack of influence on the entire workflow, it is not in my hands to change basic processes (such as the exclusive use of RGB images). Therefore, I can unfortunately not implement some well-intentioned advice.

What really helps me here is a "brave", concrete answer as to whether my settings are objectionable in this form when exporting to InDesign, or whether they are correct (see attached image in my first post). They look logically correct to me, but unfortunately sometimes you don't see everything yourself. So I take from rob days' first answer that they are probably correct. It's good. Also, his answer confirms my suspicion that you don't actually need any additional software. The only thing I miss here is the (automatic) identifier "FOGRA40". I don't know how important that is. The printer's specifications require it. It can be entered manually in the export settings under "Identification of the initial condition". This has no effect, it is only displayed.

The only reason I haven't marked the answer as correct so far is that I'm still unsure overall. As described, I get different results with the two methods. See also my 4 attachments with the color samples. That led me to my next question: about the settings in callas. These are numerous and require a lot of expertise. But I don't want to go into that any further now. As I noticed, only a few people in this forum have experience with the pdfToolbox. Nevertheless, I have attached a screenshot of the profile I created in callas.

 Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this.

regards

rob day

Community Expert

Hi @cmoke73 , You may already know this, but when you Export to PDF/X and set a Color Conversion Destination all the color in the document gets converted to DeviceCMYK—CMYK with no profile. The X Standard requires an Output Intent profile to be included so the intended destination is known, but the converted CMYK color objects themselves get no profile.

Here I have Lab and RGB fills, and a placed AdbobeRGB image. I’ve set the Destination to Document CMYK and manually entered FOGRA40 as the Identifier, but that info won’t have any affect on the conversion to Document CMYK on export:

If I check the page items with AcrobatPro’s Object inspector, they all inspect as DeviceCMYK—no profile:

If I run a Preflight to check for PDF/X-4 compliance the PDF passes, and the Identifier I manually entered in the InDesign Export dialog is listed:

C

cmoke73Author

Inspiring

If I check the page items with AcrobatPro’s Object inspector, they all inspect as DeviceCMYK—no profile

Hi rob day

I did a test and gave the image (upper half) an SC paper profile with Photoshop:

When I checked in Acrobat, it still didn't show a profile. Is it possible that you can't see it at all at this point?

L

Laubender

Community Expert

@HeraklitePrepress asked: "Is it a normal conversion or a Device Link conversion?"

As far as I can see from the German discussion at hilfdirselbst.ch a Device Link conversion is in play with the Callas pdfToolbox software. And that's the criterium that I say stay with pdfToolbox.

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

rob day

Community Expert

Hi Uwe, I think DeviceLink profiles work well to fix CMYK color that has been convertd into the wrong space—if @cmoke73 used ISO Coated for the interior its 300% TAC would have to get adjusted.

But the question might be why work with CMYK color at all. If I posted a question here about placing CMYK images, everyone would tell me to always place RGB—if CMYK images are a problem why is it OK to build InDesign swatches as CMYK?

Rather than building my source colors in a CMYK space, which might be wrong, I could create the colors in a large gamut RGB space, or device independant Lab—Pantone Solid color swatches set to process would be in the Lab space. I could then assign either ISO Coated or SC paper without the Lab color’s appearance changing, and make a single Lab-to-CMYK conversion.

L

Laubender

Community Expert

Note: A complementary discussion started in German at hilfdirselbst.ch:

Acrobat vs. callas pdfToolbox - Unterschied in der Farbkonvertierung.
cmoke, 18. Jan 2023, 10:50
https://www.hilfdirselbst.ch/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=585308#585308

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

C

cmoke73Author

Inspiring

Thank you Uwe for your hint!

HeraklitePrepress

Participating Frequently

Dear user I read with interest this post.

First, if you want to properly use the Photoshop eyedropper as a real densitometer with Lab values, be sure the Intent has been choose Mode Absolute Colorimetric has been checked in the Color Settings.

Secondly, IMHO, they are many factors to discuss in order to compare apples to apples.
SC_paper_eci and ISOcoated_v2_eci ICC profile are very different indeed.
Not only the TAC but moreover the White Point.
It is more "yellowish" and less "luminous" in the former (L89 a0 b5) and more "neutral" and "luminous" with the latter (L95 a0 b-2).

You mentioned using Callas pdfToolbox for color conversion.
So, you perform it after having exported a PDF from the In Design source file.
What profile do you use? Is it a normal conversion or a Device Link conversion?

Be aware to the cumulative conversions from the departure to arrival.

Let me know.
Sincerely.

rob day

Community Expert

Hi @cmoke73 , The job isn’t going to be imposed for, or print on the same press sheet, so I think you would be better off creating a separate document for the cover pages— cover, inside cover, inside back cover, and the back cover. Then the cover document can have the ISO Coated V2 CMYK profile assigned, and exported to PDF/X-4 with ISO Coated V2 as the Output Intent. The interior can have the SC paper (ECI) as its CMYK profile assignment and be exported to PDF/X-4 with SC paper (ECI) as the Output Intent.

If you do that I don’t see why you would need to use Callas pdfToolbox at all—the two documents would have the correct CMYK conversions and PDF X Output Intents.

C

cmoke73Author

Inspiring

Hello rob

This is what I did: separate sheets with different profiles. I'm just wondering if you get the same result when exporting with profiles in InDesign and with the Callas application. It really doesn't look like it on my screen.

C

cmoke73Author

Inspiring

I can’t help with Callas, but with AcrobatPro make sure you have Output Preview open. When you Export to a PDF/X standard, AcrobatPro will default to the Output Intent for the Simulation Profile and you should get a match between InDesign and Acrobat. Here my document has Coated GRACoL 2006 as its CMYK assignment and my PDF/X-4 Export is to Document CMYK:

Output Preview:

Hi Rob.

Sorry for my late reply, I had to be in the office at my true color monitor to check a few things before replying.

That sounds logical for me. It could be the easiest and also the fastest way to get ready-to-print documents. We've been using this (callas pdfToolbox) plugin for a long time (before I was here) and I'm wondering if we could do without it. On the other hand, I hoped to get a deeper insight into color management by comparing both methods.

As an example, I prepared 4 sheets with different output:

1. without profile and without color converting

2. do all the work with InDesign PDF export tool

3. one-Step-Job in callas (conversion with an already created profile)

4. two-step job in Callas (first the color conversion tool, then profiling with PDF X4)

And the result amazes me. Especially between point 2 (which is how I would like to do it) and 4 (which is how we have been doing it all along). The biggest difference in the CMYK colors is usually seen in yellow. The colors become "warmer" due to the profiling from InDesign. For the paper we use (SC paper) that might not be the best. The paper itself has a warm note. Strangely there are no color shifts when converting RGB colors.

So, I´m confused. 😞

Sign up

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Sign in to Adobe Community

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Scanning file for viruses.

This file cannot be downloaded