callas pdfToolbox vs. Adobe onboart tools

[cmoke73]

Hi everybody.

My following question is a larger topic, but I just want to keep it as simple as possible: PDF export to InDesign with a press-ready color management.

The framework conditions: MAC OS, InDesign CC21, Adobe DC Professional, callas pdfToolbox (as a plugin or use independently of an application). The output (ISO Coated V2 for the cover and SC paper (ECI) for the content) goes to a printing house.

In recent years, our workflow has been as follows:

- do the job with InDesign

- Export PDF

- Separating the pages into individual pages

- Converting colors in Acrobat using the pdfToolbox plugin (this step for SC paper content only)

- Profiling PDF X4 (with custom profile) in Acrobat with pdfToolbox plugin

After that, the catalog was ready for printing. The conformance in Acrobat shows (for the content): PDF/X-4, Identifier is FOGRA40 and Profile Info is SC Paper (ECI).

I'm wondering if I don't use the plugin and create the color conversion job using the Adobe tools, can I get the same result with it? Please see the screenshot showing the settings in the InDesign exporter.

Of course I've already tried it, but in fact it was a big visual difference to the result with the callas pdfToolbox. So something might not be right there.

Color management is a big topic, I know, but what's the mistake in this case? To me the way with onboard tools sounds reasonable. 🙂

I would appreciate your answers

[cmoke73]

Dear contributors

The initial question in this thread was whether the onboard tools from Adobe can achieve qualitatively comparable results as the third-party software from callas. Many responses have been received that delve deep into the topic. Thanks for that!
Unfortunately for me, at a certain point I reach the limits of my knowledge when it comes to the physics of color management. Also due to lack of time and lack of influence on the entire workflow, it is not in my hands to change basic processes (such as the exclusive use of RGB images). Therefore, I can unfortunately not implement some well-intentioned advice.

What really helps me here is a "brave", concrete answer as to whether my settings are objectionable in this form when exporting to InDesign, or whether they are correct (see attached image in my first post). They look logically correct to me, but unfortunately sometimes you don't see everything yourself. So I take from rob days' first answer that they are probably correct. It's good. Also, his answer confirms my suspicion that you don't actually need any additional software. The only thing I miss here is the (automatic) identifier "FOGRA40". I don't know how important that is. The printer's specifications require it. It can be entered manually in the export settings under "Identification of the initial condition". This has no effect, it is only displayed.

The only reason I haven't marked the answer as correct so far is that I'm still unsure overall. As described, I get different results with the two methods. See also my 4 attachments with the color samples. That led me to my next question: about the settings in callas. These are numerous and require a lot of expertise. But I don't want to go into that any further now. As I noticed, only a few people in this forum have experience with the pdfToolbox. Nevertheless, I have attached a screenshot of the profile I created in callas.


Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this.

regards

[rob day]

Hi @cmoke73 , You may already know this, but when you Export to PDF/X and set a Color Conversion Destination all the color in the document gets converted to DeviceCMYK—CMYK with no profile. The X Standard requires an Output Intent profile to be included so the intended destination is known, but the converted CMYK color objects themselves get no profile.

Here I have Lab and RGB fills, and a placed AdbobeRGB image. I’ve set the Destination to Document CMYK and manually entered FOGRA40 as the Identifier, but that info won’t have any affect on the conversion to Document CMYK on export:

If I check the page items with AcrobatPro’s Object inspector, they all inspect as DeviceCMYK—no profile:

If I run a Preflight to check for PDF/X-4 compliance the PDF passes, and the Identifier I manually entered in the InDesign Export dialog is listed:

[cmoke73]

If I check the page items with AcrobatPro’s Object inspector, they all inspect as DeviceCMYK—no profile

Hi rob day

I did a test and gave the image (upper half) an SC paper profile with Photoshop:

 

When I checked in Acrobat, it still didn't show a profile. Is it possible that you can't see it at all at this point?

 

[Laubender]

Hi @cmoke73 ,

did you do the export of the PDF to PDF/X-1a?

With that setting you always will convert the color to DeviceCMYK.

( No ICC profile will be written to the PDF.)

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

[rob day]

When I checked in Acrobat, it still didn't show a profile

Document CMYK colors exporting as DeviceCMYK is a PDF/X standard feature.

It’s assumed that if you set the Export Destination to Document CMYK, the converted CMYK output values are correct for the destination and no further conversions will be needed at output—no profile is needed to output the CMYK values unchanged.

It makes unwanted or accidental CMYK-to-CMYK conversions less likely. The Output Intent profile lets you and the printer know what profile was used to make the final CMYK conversion. It also becomes the default Simulation Profile for soft proofing.

[HeraklitePrepress]

Hello.

I built tow fixup and one profile in Callas for you.
The latter can be use in pdfToolbox or Acrobat with the plugin instaed of the software.
I did some adjustments because some informations were missing in your screenshot, as far as i read.

01 - install the SC_paper_eci.icc profile on your workstation.
02 - Open Callas pdfToolbox and in parameters create a new Output Intent condition.
03 - Import the Callas (kfpx) profile 'Convert to PDF_X-4 SC Paper ECI'.

04 - Open your F39 PDF whenver in Acrobat or Toolbox and run the profile.

05 - Be sure. to close the result and open it again because Acrobat retains by default the last informations.

I did some screenshots to explain.

I tested on my side and it works as you would like.
Let me know if it works for you as well.

Here is a link to a private Drive in which I uploaded all the stuff you need :
https://drive.proton.me/urls/J1HNXK6FYW#k52F5tpV2LSS

Password: AdobeF40Test2023
Sincerely.
Axel

[cmoke73]

Hallo Axel.

thanks for your effort. In the profile you set the output intent to PSO Coated v3. Is it correct?

 

[HeraklitePrepress]

Hello.
No matter this info since the two fixup amend this, so far.