Can't get incomplete and embedded fonts out of file: can't package fonts in

[Sioco]

Trying to package an InDesign file, and fonts aren't going into Document folder. The fonts that won't go happen to also have been Type 1 fonts in the original product (this is an update of said product). They're still listed in the packaging as "embedded." I did replace all fonts with an updated font (Gotham family) in InDesign and in all Illustrator files coming in. I cleared caches (Adobe and Windows). I uninstalled and reinstalled the fonts (and InDesign). I've rebooted each time I've made a change and ensured all Adobe apps were closed for everything I tried. I can only get Gotham Medium to show up in the folder. It keeps saying that I have 4 "incomplete" fonts, which is why I think those Type 1 fonts are interfering, but I can't seem to get rid of them! (Went to Windows folder to get rid of them, and they aren't there, but they do show up in MS Office apps.) I've lost the whole day's work on this... Does anyone have any advice???

[Joel Cherney]

They're still listed in the packaging as "embedded."

"Embedded" means that they are used in one of your placed assets - maybe an EPS file, maybe an Illustrator file? Save a copy of your file, then go to your Links panel and delete half of your links. Go back to your Fonts dialog - if you have zero embedded fonts, then you know that one of the placed files you deleted contained those embedded fonts. 

When you say you "deleted caches" did you follow instructions like these?

 (Went to Windows folder to get rid of them, and they aren't there, but they do show up in MS Office apps.)

You can always track down the exact location of a font used in an InDesign file (as well as how many fonts are used in your graphics) from the Type -> Find Font dialog:

[Willi Adelberger]

OTF fonts contain T1. If you embed fonts in PDF or in AI file they will appear as T1 fonts if you have a look in Acrbat. 

[Sioco]

Thank you, Joel! Those are one set of instructions I used. The Type 1 fonts don't show up in Find/Replace, so I'm going to  try deleting links. I did to into every linked file and replace the fonts (actually during initial production--it was my first step). I rechecked all of them, but based on what Willi and Brad said below, maybe I have some little sneaky guys in one of those files. Thanks for the info and suggestions!

[Sioco]

Hi Joel!

Dumping the links didn't work, but I wanted to thank you again because that was a great idea that will come in handy for other issues in the future!

I think I'm going to have my client license the font on his end (he has Adobe Fonts too, but I doubt he knows how to use it--I'll walk him through it). He'll then have to have the press folks do it too, but I know they have access to Adobe Fonts as well. I just hate having to have the fonts installed three times. Puts the burden on my client and the press staff when I used to be able to just toss stuff over the fence and have it complete. (Oh well. It still won't be a problem whenever press-ready PDFs will work. That just won't work for this one product.)

Appreciate everyone's input and support!

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@Sioco

Looks like you're giving "away" your files to "press folks"?

You shouldn't - you should send them exported PDF - not your "open" files - INDD+links. 

[Sioco]

Just this one time, at the client's request. I don't know that he'll pass on the the press folks, unless they have trouble with the cuts. He likes to make small, easy changes himself and owns the files in the first place. He usually only sends the PDF to press. The files are his to begin with, so if he wants to share, I can't really stop him. I didn't originate the design or the file. Thank you for saying something! We all have to protect our own work!

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@Sioco

When I says "giving away" - yes, I meant two things 😉

The one - you've described - but as files aren't "yours" - that's fine. 

But, if you give your open files - who takes responsibility for the errors? 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@Sioco

Unless your client ALWAYS requests "contact proof", then check it carefully AND sign every page... 

[Sioco]

Excellent question! Contract states final delivered PDF is master for those sorts of judgments. I'm also lucky to have worked with this guy for many years, so with him, there is a trust level. He always owns up when it's on him. (But it's written into the contract anyway... just in case!)

[Eugene Tyson]

Nothing wrong with sharing files with clients or press - I usually send them if they request them, no charge. I don't see it as giving it away - I see it as a service, if they paid for the work, they own the files, no issues. 

Anyway -  the issue around the fonts - package what you can without the fonts- send it on and let them figure it out the rest. 

Offer the PDF too - send that as well - then you're covered. 

They can try get the fonts to work and match your PDF.

Or just use your PDF.

If they need to license the font let them - it's up to them anyway. If they have Adobe fonts, then they have the license to them, they don't need to install them. 

My advice - get on with sending what you can (without the fonts) and let them figure out the rest. 

But be a stickler that you only usually send PDFs and sending files is unusual but doable, but they need to license the fonts to use the files. 

[Sioco]

Thanks, Eugene! Great advice! 🙂

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

Let's deal with the information above.

Embedded Fonts:

Fonts saved in Illustrator files (.AI) will be listed as embedded, as they are included in the "PDF-Compatible" side of the .AI file (subsetted). They will not be collected as they aren't necessary since the .AI files already have what they need for print.

Similarly, old EPS files with embedded fonts will behave the same.

Old EPS files without embedded fonts will collect them only if they are currently available on your system. However, If these EPS use Type 1,  they will be listed as missing (not available and cannot be used) in any current InDesign since the Type 1 deprecation.

Incomplete:

Usually meaning a family is incomplete. This might be because of the new files you have for Gotham. Where did you get them? Adobe Fonts just recently added Gotham to their collection. If you've configured your InDesign to autoactivate, you might have conflicting versions... and, of course, if you are using Adobe Fonts versions loaded, you cannot collect those anyway. If you got your new "Gotham" anywhere else than from a legal vendor or Adobe Fonts, you should put 'em aside.

Advice? Just collect your fonts manually to the Documents Fonts folder if you need to. You don't HAVE to rely on InDesign to do it; It's there for convenience. It just means you will have to have an accurate knowledge of which ones you need to include. If you use a Font Manager, some have a utility to scan for fonts in documents and create a set that you can export.

[Sioco]

Thank you, Brad! This is very informative! I got the updated Gotham typeface from Adobe Fonts. They don't appear in any of my font folders (which was my trick before--just to copy them over as long as they were licensed for that use). I did find them through a bizarre, arcane process in which they were named with numbers, and I hesitated to rename them and copy them into the folder for the client. Any tips on a better place to grab them and copy them over? Or is that what everyone does, and it's okay to do it? I'm just not positive how to rename, but I'll follow however Gotham Medium (the one font that made it into the folder) is named, I guess?

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

Yah, don't do that. You cannot distribute these legally. Besides, you don't NEED to package Adobe Fonts because anyone who will open these will have the same access you do, so packaging them is unnecessary. Back in "the day" when you had to send native files to printers, there was a clause in the terms and conditions of any Adobe fonts that one could send fonts to a service provider/commercial printer ONLY for the purpose of outputting a file with the caveat they had to have a legal license to use them themselves*. Collecting licensed  fonts to distibute to another user or agency is actually not in the bounds of the T&C.

* it didn't happen to us at the printer I was working for at the time, but another large printer in our city was hit with a software audit (yes, that was a thing), and they were fined for things like using illegitimate software and also "keeping" and using fonts they did not have licenses for. After that, to be on the safe side ourselves, we purchased the entire Font Folio so we would have a legitimnate licensefor any Adobe font our clients would use.

[Sioco]

Got it. Very good information! Thank you! I've let my client know that he needs to license those fonts himself based on how many products he has (that I don't work on) containing those fonts. (He had the Type 1 fonts licensed. He just hasn't touched the products in some years.) I'm sure he'll say yes, and I'll have this all resolved tomorrow when he responds, and I walk him through how to do that. I just wish I had thought to go this route in the first place... 😉

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@Sioco

Also, fonts that has been activated through Adobe Fonts - won't be packaged. 

The same is with licensed fonts.